Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

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This topic contains 442 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 7 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #50666

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn, see the Balfour Declaration. It was promulgated during the first world war, i think. It was the first country to announce support for a Jewish state. It was probably mostly about encouraging Jews to join their side in the first world war. English aristocracy has a history of hating jews but that kind of goes without saying.

    #50667


    Participant

    Everyone rushes to support the apartheid regime that is publicly stating that “there are no innocent Palestinians” (translation: “The only good Palestinian is a dead one.”)

    I don’t support Israel in its treatment of Palestine or it’s encroaching setttlements, neither do I ascribe to a simplistic narrative of armies versus terrorists. While the tactics of Hamas and the IDF are both contemptible in this conflict, the issue is, putting myself in their shoes, how can I tell them to do anything different? Hamas is going to use desperation tactics because it won’t stand toe-to-toe with IDF and its allies if it fights under the rules of slaughter we deem acceptable. To fight ‘fair’ would be to simply lose. But if Hamas uses its own people as a shield, it’s difficult to tell the IDF to ignore it when the people they’re tasked with protecting are potential targets.

    The point here isn’t about what’s moral. It’s that from way the fuck over here, I have no clue what you say to either camp that has them backing down for real. I can’t give either a reason to trust the other. And I can’t unravel the long list of actions, retaliations, and escalations. Even in this recent wave, tear gassing worshippers Al-Aqsa Mosque is one event in a long tense history over a site that is ‘sacred’ because of historically potent make-belief. That Al-Aqua Flood and Operation Iron Swords are both escalations over preceding events seem to be steeped in sentiments of ‘this has been a long time coming’. It’s a conflict that only makes sense when you accept the irrationality of humans as a species. In terms of the laws of physics, everyone could just stop blowing each other the fuck up and life could move forward. But in terms of psychology, it’s a non-starter.

    #50669

    Unseen
    Participant

    While being pro-Palestinian isn’t the same as being pro-Hamas, Hamas wouldn’t exist had there not been the original catastrophically bad judgment of creating the State of Israel in the first place. Because of that, you and I and the world now have Hamas and the apartheid racist State of Israel to contend with.

    Still, there are people out there who can’t make the distinction that being pro-Palestinian isn’t the same as being pro-Hamas or anti-semitic.

    This whole situation is a monumental example of “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.”

    How bad is it? Sunni Palestinian Hamas is now being backed by Shia Iran, apparently. As if having two medieval religions plaguing the world separately, that one mistake by the UN is functioning to remind them that they are brothers in Allah.

    #50670

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, that is one of dem rotten cheeses. Blue, camembert, roquefort…

    And still ya aint drawing me in.

    #50671

    Davis
    Moderator

    Time and time again, we think of nations as having some kind of national agency. In other words, if there is a national will, then there is a clear way forward. When you are dealing with at least one government made of coalitions of parties with various electoral strategies, party structures, donors and power structures, decisions are made on what benefits the party’s bottom line as well as the leaders and those who keep them in power.

    This is even more complicated when dealing with multiple governments in occupied territories supported by a number of factions and militias with numerous ideological and highly corrupt motives.

    Simply put, leaders on both side of the Israeli-Palestine conflict, have zero incentive to do anything other than the status quo. One side remains occupied in misery, the other lives in a relatively luxurious yet instable and insecure privilege. Both sides do unspeakable things. Both sides do what they seem fair to maintain their basic, and to them reasonable seeming interests: one, to simply exist, the other, to survive in their misery and find some dignity any way they can.

    Until something seismic happens affecting both sides, nothing will change. There is simply no incentive for leaders of either side to do anything different. Talking about the peace process (at least for the long term future) is absurd. If leaders from either side gain nothing from engaging in a difficult process of reconciliation, they won’t bother.

    Whether Israel should maintain it’s relentless policy of siphoning off more and more of the meagre land and resources of Palestine, squeezing them into even more misery and committing daily injustices is another story. Hard to see that trajectory changing. Whether Palestinians should or should not support a corrupt leadership which whips up sporadic terror committing crimes against humanity, that’s another story. I would say no to both. But then I am fighting against tactics that suit the interests of those in power on both sides. Fighting against power structures is like fighting against the rain falling.

    Only possible change is one where leaders have an incentive to change. Hopefully some genius will come along and figure that out. That, or some cataclysmic event.

    Ultimately it is a tiny piece of land in an insignificant part of the world (on a geo-political scale). Far more places are worthy of our attention, not least of all because in other places, leaders, under certain conditions, can be incentivised to do things that lead to change.

    #50673

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Reminds me a little of the inquisition in Spain. 15th century saw disparate people incentivized by hatred of Jews and the chance to attain 10 percent of Jew’s wealth for turning in Jews found that unity that only hate and money can provide.

    And now Arabs who hate each other, who hate other Arabs in the wrong sect of Islam, find unity in their hatred of Jews.

    Assuming lots of Palestinians are killed and Hamas is eradicated the question arises whether Palestinians will elect another death cult to represent them. There is the example of Egypt which was part of the coalition that attacked Israel immediately upon its creation and then again did a surprise attack in the Yom Kippur war. They got their asses handed to them and they did the pragmatic thing under Sadat and made peace. So there is some precedent for pragmatism. But my guess is Palestinians will embrace a new terrorist organization. One thing is for sure. Arabs don’t care about Palestinians. Druze positively hate them. But having Jewish oppressors gives the Arabs a pretext to be on their side. Obviously if they cared they would help. Instead they refuse them. And in some of the Arabic countries like Lebanon if memory serves they have been executed en masse for protesting.

    I suppose the right wing gov in Israel might swing left. Maybe they will get Israelis out of Palestinian territory. IDK. But i do know that as long as the initial goal of the Arabs to kill every Jew and take the holy land is extant that peace is not possible. And negotiations are not something that makes any sense for Israel. It really is an intractable problem. The Arabs keep publishing the anti jewish propaganda. Islam. Ignorance. Jealousy of a people who built a thriving metropolis out of the desert…

    #50674

    jakelafort
    Participant

    ONDON — Over 100,000 ethnic Armenian refugees have fled Nagorno-Karabakh as of Saturday, local authorities said, with it now appearing that virtually the entire Armenian population from the enclave will leave, abandoning their homes after Azerbaijan, backed by Turkey, recaptured the region last week with a military offensive.

    About 85% of the population has now fled in less than a week, in what Armenia has condemned as “ethnic cleansing.”

    I only learned about this a few days ago. CNN, MSNBC…aint sayin nuthin bout it. Big surprise. NOT.

    #50675

    Unseen
    Participant

    Oh, boy, here we go. How much longer until the U.S. and NATO get drawn in?

    If China wants to make it’s move on Taiwan, this’d be a pretty good time.

    WW3 anyone? (Yeah, creating the State of Israel was pure genius.)

    #50676


    Participant

    I suppose the right wing gov in Israel might swing left. Maybe they will get Israelis out of Palestinian territory. IDK. But i do know that as long as the initial goal of the Arabs to kill every Jew and take the holy land is extant that peace is not possible. And negotiations are not something that makes any sense for Israel. It really is an intractable problem.

    Neither Palestinians nor Israelis are exactly a monolith. Support for a two-state solution has at numerous times been quite high on both sides of the border. There are lots of people for whom coexistence of some sort is an issue, even if there are disputes about where the exact borders should be. The point isn’t about the viability of the age old two-state proposal or any of the other proposals though. It’s just that people do want some measure of peace, though I have to imagine fewer do at the moment.

    #50677

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn wrote:

    Neither Palestinians nor Israelis are exactly a monolith. Support for a two-state solution has at numerous times been quite high on both sides of the border. There are lots of people for whom coexistence of some sort is an issue, even if there are disputes about where the exact borders should be. The point isn’t about the viability of the age old two-state proposal or any of the other proposals though. It’s just that people do want some measure of peace, though I have to imagine fewer do at the moment.

    I am such an idiot i don’t know how to do the trickery you do with the quote.

    Not a monolith. Agreed. We can only speak in general terms in regards to sweeping statements.

    The two state solution was granted. Israelis were stoked. Arabs, not just Palestinians were furious. Not sure when Palestinians had widespread support for it.

    As to peace i am sure the Israelis do. Although at the moment people who lost loved ones to this attack want vengeance. Were it true of Palestinians as a whole they probably would not support a regime like Hamas. The apotheosis of martyrdom, the ban on tears for those who gave their lives suggests peace is not paramount.

    What might work as an actual solution is as follows. Surrounding Arab countries assimilate the Palestinians. Israel takes part of West Bank and Gaza. Jordan absorbs Jerusalem and the territory leading to and around it. Arabs renounce their death to Israel policy. Arabs stop teaching that Jews are apes and rest of the racist hatred. Widespread programs for kids to interact from Jewish and Arabic countries is implemented. Forget it. Nobody wants the Palestinians. They want to cry the blues but not help the way Jews help Jews or the way a nation like Germany that took in i don’t know how many millions of Syrians and other refugees.

    #50678


    Participant

    The two state solution was granted.

    It hasn’t been. Partial measures granting some measure of autonomy to Palestinians have been taken or ceded in the past, but a two-state reality was never actually reached. Gaza isn’t an independent nation and the West Bank enclaves are even further from that reality.

    #50679

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn wrote:

    It hasn’t been. Partial measures granting some measure of autonomy to Palestinians have been taken or ceded in the past, but a two-state reality was never actually reached. Gaza isn’t an independent nation and the West Bank enclaves are even further from that reality.

    I am referring to the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and Palestinian state. They had it. They were granted a state. The Palestinians and Arab League rejected the state and started a war against Israel. That state of Palestine was never reached due to their own dissatisfaction with the territory granted. That is like an executory contract that is breached during performance. So technically you are correct but it is on the Arabs and Palestinians who attacked.

    #50680

    jakelafort
    Participant

    As an addendum to my chimerical peace plan: Jews give up rights to visit Jerusalem which would be in Jordan except as agreed by Jordan. Fuck the Orthodox robots who are a bane to the state of Israel. Jews agree to grant full rights of citizenship to Palestinian Israelis after some period of peace where Israel feels secure without having been attacked. Create a buffer zone on the West Bank between the ceded land and allocated land between Israel and Jordan. Foster any kind of cooperation that is tenable including trading, business cooperatives and especially having Arab and Jewish kids interacting in sports and other activities.

    Gaza is going to be more or less obliterated. If there is ever a time to do it. It will be in the aftermath of this horror show. Yeah right…

    #50681


    Participant

    I am referring to the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and Palestinian state. They had it. They were granted a state. The Palestinians and Arab League rejected the state and started a war against Israel.

    If you’re talking about the Oslo Accord, then no.

    #50682

    jakelafort
    Participant

    No i am not referring to that. 1947. 1948. That period.

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