The plus side of the establishment of Israel…

[_Robert_Participant]

All too common @enco. The far-left refuses to acknowledge that this is normal life under Islam. The Taliban make Andrew Dice Clay seem like a feminist.

No wonder Trump is leading. The self-loathing, white-left has lost its way and will abandon its old centrists unless they allow Hamas to survive and regroup to continue the violence for generations to come. Brill idea.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Visual confirmation that Religion and Morality are two very different things:

If these people are religious extremists, and not just criminals, then I think this is a case of sacredness of an overriding principle or idea leading to committing evil in other ways.

In other words, if something has infinite value, then other things can legitimately be sacrificed in favour of it.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Simon, so you are admitting that morality of a respectable sort is destroyed by religion?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Jake – it can be, if other things are valued above human life and welfare and avoidance of suffering.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Jake – it can be, if other things are valued above human life and welfare and avoidance of suffering.

Which is the main point of the big three religions.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

If these people are religious extremists, and not just criminals, then I think this is a case of sacredness of an overriding principle or idea leading to committing evil in other ways.

In other words, if something has infinite value, then other things can legitimately be sacrificed in favour of it.

Assuming the language translation of the video is correct, the kidnappers referred to the girls as “Zionists,” which indicates this was terrorism and not any other form of crime.

And yes, you are quite right in your moral assessment here. A so-called “higher good” that claims it is above and beyond the life and flourishing of individual human beings will always end up stacking bodies like cordwood.

This is true whether that so-called “higher good” is a Supernatural God demanding sacrifice or Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer demanding “The Common Good Over The Individual Good,” or The Marxist Class Struggle demanding the purge of “Bourgeois Decadence.”

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: I misgendered "Volk.". Please don't tell anyone

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

My take on military enrollment is that unless someone can demonstrate that melanin content or nationality or what someone has between their legs or how they swing can repel bullets, shrapnel, and Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical (NBC) weapons, then none of that matters.

And as some in the Sioux tribe learned the hard way, what people believe doesn’t repel weaponry either:

The Ghost Shirt–Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ghost_Shirt

As for a draft, not only is it anathema to freedom, but really isn’t even necessary for anything but an imperial power, which Israel is not. Being surrounded on all sides by enemies for 76 years is more than sufficient motivation to get people to contribute to defense in some capacity.

During the two times the U.S. learned that two oceans don’t keep us safe–December 7, 1941 and September 11, 2001–people mobbed to recruitment lines and in World War II, teenage boys fudged their ages to get a chance to fight Hirahito, Hitler, and Mussolini.

It is also noteworthy that the most elite fighting units, Airborne, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Recon, Navy SEALS, Delta Force, Bri tish SAS, all were and are both volunteer and highly selective about who gets accepted.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Enco,

No doubt patriotism and willingness to join military increases when a nation is under attack. USA certainly does not need a draft. But i assume Israel does. Gotta be ready for the freedom fighters to make surprise attacks. Or Hezbollah or who the fuck knows who is going to attack Israel next. Words like freedom echo in a hollow way when there is carnage. And maybe you are right after the attack of october that Israelis will volunteer in droves sans draft. But during periods of quiescence when dancing naked on the nudist camps for the beaches is the primary motivation then the gung-ho defend family, friends and the nation diminishes.

[UnseenParticipant]

Only our enemies commit war crimes

From the article:

Take the State Department’s long-awaited report on Israel’s compliance with international law in Gaza, which came out late last week. The administration found that Israel had likely used U.S. weapons to commit war crimes but said there wasn’t enough evidence to draw clear conclusions about specific incidents. The upshot is that, from the Biden administration’s perspective, there is no legal reason to cut off U.S. arms transfers to Israel at this time.

In Blinken’s telling, any more forceful conclusions would have been impossible given the “incredibly complex military environment” in Gaza. “It’s very, very difficult in the heat of war to make a definitive assessment about any individual incident,” he said Sunday.

But that “very, very difficult” operating environment didn’t stop the State Department from drawing strong conclusions about Hamas’ actions in the very same report. In a three-page defense of Israel’s campaign — a feature not present in similar reports on other states — U.S. officials found with great clarity that Hamas uses human shields, intentionally targets civilians, and “consistently violates” the laws of war.

Observers are left to conclude that the U.S. has somehow attained more definitive inside information about Hamas than Israel, one of America’s closest military partners.

[UnseenParticipant]

The U.S. Finds Itself Further Isolated After ICJ Orders Israel To Halt Rafah Offensive

From the article:

WASHINGTON (AP) — A U.N. court’s order that Israel halt its offensive in the southern Gaza city of Rafah has deepened a disconnect with the United States over a military operation that faces mounting international condemnation but that American officials describe, at least for now, as limited and targeted.

The decision Friday by the International Court of Justice in The Hague adds to the pressure facing an increasingly isolated Israel, coming just days after Norway, Ireland and Spain said they would recognize a Palestinian state, and the chief prosecutor of a separate international court sought arrest warrants for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as well as leaders of Hamas.

The Biden administration stands apart from the global community — though it is opposed to a major offensive in Rafah, the administration also insists that the steps its close ally Israel has taken so far have not crossed red lines.

 

[UnseenParticipant]

Can you even imagine the outrage the American government would express, along with strident accusations of war crimes if the situations were reversed and it was Hamas engaging in mass killing of civilians, leveling most civilian dwellings, attacking and destroying hospitals, torturing prisoners, starving Israeli civilians and withholding potable water?

The hypocrisy of supporting our “ally” Israel as it caries out an illegal war on civilians should be obvious to anyone except rabid anti-Islamists. It ain’t antisemitism that’s the more pressing problem in this situation.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Can you even imagine the outrage the American government would express, along with strident accusations of war crimes if the situations were reversed and it was Hamas engaging in mass killing of civilians, leveling most civilian dwellings, attacking and destroying hospitals, torturing prisoners, starving Israeli civilians and withholding potable water?

Uh, Hamas is confirmed to have done all of that except starving and depriving water, and they may well have done the latter two to their Israeli hostages. That is why Israel is at war with Hamas.

Oh wait, Hamas and other like-minded armed thugs have been the ones looting food and water aid the moment that it passes away from Israeli or U.S. Military protection, so Hamas & Friends are starving and dehydrating the Palestinians they claim to support.

The hypocrisy of supporting our “ally” Israel as it caries out an illegal war on civilians should be obvious to anyone except rabid anti-Islamists. It ain’t antisemitism that’s the more pressing problem in this situation.

Uh, declaring war on a de facto state such as Hamas that has attacked your civilians is perfectly legal under The Laws of War. And the desire to destroy all Jews and Israel is in the charter of Hamas.

Please give this up.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Space
• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum

[_Robert_Participant]

Yeah, Hamas’s charter is a war crime.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (Preamble)

The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.” (Article 7)

“Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: ‘Hail to Jihad!’. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah’s victory comes about.” (Article 33)

 

 

 

[UnseenParticipant]

I googled “apartment building leveled by hamas” and all the results were for apartment buildings leveled by Israel. I’m not lying: do the search yourself.

Then you speculate (no evidence offered) that Hamas may have done the same to their hostages. So, let’s call that an attempted proof by fabrication.

As for intercepting relief food… Wasn’t it Napoleon who “An army marches on its stomach”? How can they fight for Palestinians rights if they are starving? That would be a rather futile sort of expressing solidarity, wouldn’t it?

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Uh, declaring war on a de facto state such as Hamas that has attacked your civilians is perfectly legal under The Laws of War. And the desire to destroy all Jews and Israel is in the charter of Hamas.

I think you’ll find that exterminating the civilian population in the process remains a war crime. We can expect the side of the conflict we stand with and supply not to participate in such things, can’t we? shouldn’t we?

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

googled “apartment building leveled by hamas” and all the results were for apartment buildings leveled by Israel. I’m not lying: do the search yourself.

If Hamas has fighters hiding in the apartment, of course it’s going to get bombed!

Then you speculate (no evidence offered) that Hamas may have done the same to their hostages. So, let’s call that an attempted proof by fabrication.

Well, it’s not like the Israeli hostages can use Instacart or GrubHub while being held captive! Their food and water are at the mercy of Hamas!

And Hamas seizing food and water aid is decidedly not conjecture!

As for intercepting relief food… Wasn’t it Napoleon who “An army marches on its stomach”? How can they fight for Palestinians rights if they are starving? That would be a rather futile sort of expressing solidarity, wouldn’t it?

Hamas seizes the food for itself, both to hold over the Palestinians as a tool of control, much like the Soviets did with their subjects, as well as a source of revenue on the black market to obtain more weapons! In other words, Hamas is seizing food without giving a shit about Palestinians!

Surely you cannot be this obtuse!

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Punctuation
• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Correcting a tag
• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Space

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