Ukraine has already lost the war

[Unseen]

I’m no fan of Putin, so don’t get that wrong about me. He’s a turd. This is a necessary war for him, though, because he wants a buffer zone between Russia and NATO. He doesn’t care if a single Ukrainian civilian survives as long a he has a sizeable chunk of land between Russia and NATO, though access to Ukraine’s petroleum, it’s agriculture, and its ports would be a nice bonus. However, he might settle for the Eastern provinces in a pinch.

“Winning” this conflict will likely by a pyrrhic victory at best for the US and NATO.

I think that Russia will eventually end up with Ukraine just like China can’t be kept from taking over Taiwan forever. How much blood and treasure we spend forestalling the likely inevitable is a fair question to ask.

[Unseen]

Putin is wisely forcing a protracted war which is causing the US’s and NATO nations’ reserves of weapons and ammunition to be used up is that we’ll have no choice but to escalate the weapons we give Ukraine AND we’ll also become low on weapons which might be needed to address a conflict with China.

[Davis]

Putin doesn’t give a shit about a buffer zone between Russia and any other country. No nation poses a threat to it, nor does nato. All of their neighbours (minus the little ones like Georgia and Moldova who cannot possible pose a threat) want to cooperate with them, as trade and peace suits their own interests. This includes NATO. Putin is doing this because it meets both his own interests and those who keep him in power. They consolidate control and it increases their resources and they profit from it. Any explanation of “Russian pride” or “Russian security” or “Russian nostalgia” is bullshit. You’re buying into the narrative that they sell and missing the point of just about every reason anyone starts an easily avoidable war: to maintain their position, please those who keep them in power and increase their privileges, resources and prospects.

They can easily do this, under the right conditions, while their own people suffer. They can even bankrupt their own country while realising their own goals. And I’m not even getting into the petrochemical question, which if I did would neatly tie into the above, but even that isn’t necessary to justify what he did. Whether the gamble is paying off or will pay off is another story. We will find out.

• This reply was modified 3 years, 3 months ago by Davis.

[Unseen]

@Davis

Thank you for your OPINION.

The fact remains that if Canada or Mexico were hostile powerful military sources that regularly held war exercises right across the US’s northern or southern borders, we’d be looking to put a patch of neutral ground between us. If we got some resources along the way, the US has never turned such windfalls down.

 

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

More Russians millionaires fall out of hotel windows.

[PopeBeanie]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Jake,

That is racist!

Funny, I didn’t think old duffers who are Smedley Butler wanna-bes at best or propagandists for hostile foreign powers at worst were a “protected class” or a “race.” If they are, you got me. I am, as the kids nowadays say, a “hater.” 😁

I took Jake’s comment as satire, but I may be missing your point because I haven’t googled Smedley Butler.

[Unseen]

@Davis et al who reject the idea that Putin wants a buffer zone. Mearsheimer is an actual expert on Russia and Ukraine.

[Unseen]

Serious atrocities committed by Ukrainians exposed by Mozart Group founder. The Mozart Group is a pro-Ukraine private US-based group, so this accusation is pretty serious.

[TheEncogitationer]

Unseen,

I’m not sure how Putin abandoning territory he’s seized would be a “masterstroke” for him, considering all the blood and treasure he’s wated getting them, though it would be a “masterstroke” for the Ukrainian people and the U.S. and the West.

You and Colonel Milburn are correct that if Ukrainian forces have shot and killed surrendering Putineers, that is a war crime and those who did it need prosecution.

But also always remember: None of the awful things from the Ukrainian side would be happening if Putin never invaded. The “fog of war” horrors couldn’t exist without those who start wars.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fellow Unbelievers,

Oh, boy! Is this going to end like I always hoped? 😁

Weakened Putin Orders Show of Strength While Hiding in His Bunker
https://www.thedailybeast.com/weakened-putin-orders-show-of-strength-from-his-bunker

[Unseen]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

None of the awful things from the Ukrainian side would be happening if Putin never invaded. The “fog of war” horrors couldn’t exist without those who start wars.

Ukrainians were persecuting their Russian speakers before Putin’s invasion, giving Putin a figleaf for the invasion. While it likely never arose to the level of genocide or ethnic cleansing, atrocities did happen perpetrated by the Azov brigade and other extreme right ultranationalists.

[Unseen]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

I’m not sure how Putin abandoning territory he’s seized would be a “masterstroke” for him, considering all the blood and treasure he’s wated getting them, though it would be a “masterstroke” for the Ukrainian people and the U.S. and the West.

How about by forcing Ukraine to overextend itself and then outflanking its forces or by tricking them to concentrate in one area allowing a Russian incursion elsewhere(?).

[jakelafort]

What this war boils down to is-shit, piss, corruption, snots, 21 assholes tied in a knot.

[Belle Rose]

@Jake

Only 21 Assholes?

[Davis]

Being a politician inevitably makes you do immoral things. You simply cannot ever ever ever be in that position without making dubious and morally questionable decisions. You absolutely must compromise with the people who help keep you in power (the party, funders). Even if you are an independent, you still have people who help campaign for you. And this will also inevitably include doing dubious shit, not in the interests of the people who elected you. Even if you did not intend to bend your principles when in your role/power, you will inevitably do so if you stay in your role/power. It takes someone who is fine with doing morally ambiguous things (if not absolutely immoral things) to keep their position.

[Author]

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