Veganism: Foolishness or Folly?

Homepage Forums Science Veganism: Foolishness or Folly?

This topic contains 87 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 9 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 88 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #36165

    Unseen
    Participant

    There are benefits to a vegetable-based diet, but it is not all benefit. There are serious risks as well. As a recent article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Health Effects of Vegan Diets stated:

    (E)liminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

    Youtube is rife with vids on “Why I’m no longer vegan” and if there’s one overriding theme it can be paraphrased as “After (months, years), I found my health going downhill.”

    Now, I’m sure there are vegans who would say and probably have produced videos saying “You must be doing it wrong.” That seems benign enough until you look at that word “must.” We’re looking at a variant on the old “No true Scotsman” fallacy. To put it into plain English they are saying “No true vegan suffers ill health due to eating a vegan diet.” To put it more plainly: the vegan diet is more healthful and that’s that” (end of discussion). That pretty much lays out veganism as perhaps more like a religious position taken on faith than a scientific one based on data. In science, if different people get divergent results from the same experiment, the theory is disproven, unless you take it on faith, in which case if someone else gets a different result, they must be doing it wrong.

    And yet, it seems that most people who eat a varied, sensible diet which includes animal protein and fat, getting a lot of the organic chemicals found only in animal matter, don’t seem to need to pop pills or buy expensive fortified foods and also don’t get excessive cavities, fragile bones, or find their hair falling out.

    That vegans and vegetarians often do it for “ethical” reasons has them laying their health problems on the doorstep of anything other than their philosophically-mandated diet, when a nutritionally-dictated diet would obviously be more logical and sensible.

    #36170

    jakelafort
    Participant

    i confused knew and new. Should have known better but being tired takes its toll.

    I take b12 but that is it. I note that many great athletes have gone vegan although they may take supps for specific deficiencies in their diets. And i am fairly confident that the weight of authority is that vegans and vegetarians live longer and get diseases less frequently. Of course part of it may be attributed to having more education, money and exercising more than their eating counterparts. And it also may be that the meat that is consumed is not like the meat of our hunter-gatherer past as it is rife with hormones and antibiotics. I did read recently that youngsters may be at a nutritional disadvantage as vegans.

    #36173

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I admire vegans for their conviction….however just consider if we each consumed meat like say once or twice a week.. what a huge positive impact that would have. We will hunt the seas until they are practically devoid of life with these giant factory ships chasing tuna and albacore to their ends. Then we take tons and tons of small wild fish to feed our ‘fish farms’ and kid ourselves like we are doing something good.

    #36174

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator
    I took the following quotes from the “are we fascists yet” [grossly paraphrased] thread [links embedded in the “wrote”s]:

    And as i write and think i have to imagine there were a great many that were knew [new diseases] to Europeans.

    True, but those diseases took hold in smaller but numerous steps as cultures ventured into agriculture and animal domestication, became more crowded in larger villages and cities, and later increased their travel and mingling with other cultures doing the same thing. Spread out over hundreds to thousands of years. Side note, tolerance of lactose became a thing when genes that enabled the production of lactase–to digest animal milk, including (as I think you once pointed out) “pus”–evolved to keep working beyond breast-feeding ages, and we still see to this day certain populations (e.g. many asians) who are less lactose tolerant because they didn’t experience cultural evolution identical to that of Europeans.

    Isn’t it true that nowadays most novel diseases that cross over into humans come from bats, monkeys, and other non-domesticated animals?

    True for our novel diseases, at least, but as you mentioned wrt Jeremy Diamond (actually “Jared” Diamond), European hegemony and warring spread the more Euro-endogenous diseases to the Americas (plus elsewhere, I think).  I’d like to know more about whether bats had more zoonotic disease swapping with us much further back in (e.g. some of our) cave days, as we likely shared a few of the same parasites. A large portion of our homo genome is still carrying retrovirus DNA, but I don’t know how completely or incompletely we’ve mapped out many of those “junk DNA” areas, yet.

    All still kinda off topic again, except for our evolving relationships with foody animals.

    #36175

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Here is a quick overview of lab grown meat.

    https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.au/news/7-reasons-why-lab-grown-meat-will-be-better

    The weird vegan thing is when it becomes like a religion. And for me that is refusing honey. I am not sure if coffee borne of assholes is also a dietary prohibition.

    #36176

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Here is a quick overview of lab grown meat. https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.au/news/7-reasons-why-lab-grown-meat-will-be-better The weird vegan thing is when it becomes like a religion. And for me that is refusing honey. I am not sure if coffee borne of assholes is also a dietary prohibition.

    Game changer. Maybe there will be rejection at first… along the lines of anti-scientific sentiments. Lots of that going ’round.

    #36179

    jakelafort
    Participant

    After a quick perusal of articles in re attitudes towards trying cultured meat it seems that it is distinctly negative. Gen Z is against it by and large. Some of the reasons are it is not normal or natural. And i have to assume that religious especially orthodox will be against it. But just like GMO it will gradually gain acceptance if the taste is same as slaughtered meat and health organizations advocate consuming it along with environmentalists. Also i think ethologists will have some impact as they convey the ways in which emotions and intelligence in other animals is real.

    Bring it on!

    #36182

    Unseen
    Participant

    @popebeanie: Thanks for correcting me on Prof. Diamond’s first name.

    The problem with bats, I gather, is their vast numbers and the fact that they are social and live in huge colonies facilitating the propagation of disease. I think I read somewhere that in terms of biomass, bats are at the top of the list. Despite the fact that most bats are about the size of a house mouse, there is more bat flesh on earth than any other kind.

    #36183

    Unseen
    Participant

    Here is a quick overview of lab grown meat. https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.au/news/7-reasons-why-lab-grown-meat-will-be-better The weird vegan thing is when it becomes like a religion. And for me that is refusing honey. I am not sure if coffee borne of assholes is also a dietary prohibition.

    I suspect that lab-grown meat will have severe limitations. Will anything like a standing rib roast or even an appetizing boneless rib steak ever come out of a lab? I enjoy shopping for steak, comparing this New York strip to that one for marbling, comparing two rib steaks for marbling and which one has the larger lip (the best part).

    More likely, it’ll become hamburger meat, but what happens then of the trimmings of other cuts that typically end up in hamburger? Thrown away? Fed to pigs? And many of the questions I raised about beef will apply to pork cuts as well. For many of us, the best pork chops are the ones with the rib bone on them. And what about baby back ribs from a lab? I don’t think so.

    I’m waiting for chicken breast meat to come out of a lab. Will it have chicken skin on it (the best part for many people)?

    Sorry, I think their efforts may be wasted.

    #36184

    Unseen
    Participant

    I have an ultra-conservative acquaintance who thinks the ultimate solution is the ultimate solution (in Hitler’s sense): Fewer people. And yet, we work harder to make sure we all live longer and national economies need expanding populations to grow. Some of them even pay their citizens to have children, or give parents advantages couples without children won’t find available.

    We’re living out a Catch-22.

    #36185

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, initially the choices of cuts of meat will be limited. I read sausages and ham will be available quickly but also that beef is the most profitable so you can anticipate various cuts not taking long. It may no longer be the case that the discriminating purchaser selects the best cut because the meat and its percentage and type of fat will be precise.

    For me i want tongue! Tongue sandwich with mustard on Jewish rye! Oh and extra fatty corn beef on rye too…

    #36186

    jakelafort
    Participant

    JACKPOT!

    The online sales are in the form of boxes that include a variety of different meats, sizes and costs. One sale this week is a small box which includes eight pork chops, two New York strip steaks, 12 ounces of bacon, 1.5 pounds of smoked sausage, 2 pounds of ground beef and 2 pounds of pork sausage. Customers can purchase the box for $54.50 with tax.

    The lab also offers large boxes with greater quantities of meat. This week’s large box features two ribeyes, two New York strip steaks, seven pounds of ground beef, 12 ounces of bacon, 1.5 pounds of smoked sausage, a Boston Butt approximately 4.5 pounds, eight pork chops and 3 pounds of pork sausage for $119.00 with tax.
    https://www.theplainsman.com/article/2020/10/auburns-meat-lab-offers-hand-cut-meats-to-students

    #36187

    jakelafort
    Participant

    withdrawn…sad emoji…

    #36188

    A surprising reason why eating less meat is linked to a longer life.

    #36192

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, initially the choices of cuts of meat will be limited. I read sausages and ham will be available quickly but also that beef is the most profitable so you can anticipate various cuts not taking long. It may no longer be the case that the discriminating purchaser selects the best cut because the meat and its percentage and type of fat will be precise. For me i want tongue! Tongue sandwich with mustard on Jewish rye! Oh and extra fatty corn beef on rye too…

    I just have my doubts that laboratory-produced steak will mimic the variety currently there at the meat counter with some having more marbling, some less, ribeye steaks some with large lips and some with less. We don’t want the meat counter to look like the other aisles which are populated with identical cans, jars, and bottles.

    Beyond ground beef and maybe ham (if you say so), will there be anything like a selection. Think of a produce department where every green pepper is the same, every cucumber, cabbage, and apple is the same as the next one. Then imagine a meat section like that.

    No, I don’t see the public accepting this.

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 88 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.