Veganism: Foolishness or Folly?

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This topic contains 87 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 4 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #36249

    @unseen I suspect some evolutionary adaptation explains the general predominance of black runners, male and female and not all from Africa.

    Again I don’t have the facts to hand but it has been shown that these black athletes do share a common trait, known as the “super-fast-twitch” gene. It was also found in the Caribbean athletes and upon further investigation it was shown that these athletes all originated from the same area of western Africa. Colin Lewis of the BBC also did some research back in 2007 on this that I recall watching.

    #36282

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    […] When I was a kid I made the silly mistake of trying to play fetch with a steakbone that was recently given to him. He bit me so hard it drew a lot of blood. Never, ever, ever take a steakbone (that still has meat or juices left on it) from a dog even if you were the one who gave it to them. I wouldn’t be surprised if meat on a fire is one of the things that drew wolves towards humans and resulted in their domestication.

    Similar to one of the most naive acts I ever performed. Our young dog would shiver and shake at times when given food, and I had no clue why, except to guess that it might be a simple fear of food aggression from sibling dogs. So I sat down one day, trying to train him to be comfortable with me as I kindly feed him pieces of a hot dog or two. He shivered and shook for while, then quite unexpectedly jumped up and attacked me, biting me on my tits and wrist, drawing much blood. (I was so lucky I could grab him at the back of his neck with the uninjured hand and hold him down, but I needed the help of a nearby two-by-four to keep holding him down while I got up to open the glass door and escape inside.)

    Only much later did I learn something from his breeder when I mentioned his shiver and shakes. Although she said she had no idea why that happened, and said that she’d never seen any behavior like that before, she added outrightly that if a dog showed any aggression at all, she would swing the dog up by the leash and slam it down on the ground. This shocked me, I had no clue she would treat her prized dogs like that.

    But I later realized it probably explained, at least to an adequate extent, where my dog’s fear originated. (I didn’t even fully fathom at the time that the shivering and shaking was from fear… I thought it might be some kind of neurological illness.) I further speculate that the urge to bite on or around the tits was on his mind since the days when this large breasted woman raised him. (Yeah, I may be over-thinking that.)

    (OMG, such drama in our world of carnivores.)

    #36283

    Davis
    Moderator

    Pope…do you have tits?

    #36284

    jakelafort
    Participant

    That is the first time i heard a man refer to his tits.

    As a kid i discovered our afghan had gotten into the garbage and was after chicken bones. I readily removed the bones having heard how they’re dangerous for dogs. Alsab opted not to go for my tits and instead bit me on the cheeks and left me in disbelief as i staggered inside with blood dripping down my face. My sister said “what happened?” I told her Alsab had a snack. That dog was so fucking quick. Never saw it coming and did not know what it was until later. There was a neighborhood kid who came over to play more with Alsab than with me. He would run and Alsab would nip him in the legs and ass as he ran away…

    #36285

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Again I don’t have the facts to hand but it has been shown that these black athletes do share a common trait, known as the “super-fast-twitch” gene. It was also found in the Caribbean athletes and upon further investigation it was shown that these athletes all originated from the same area of western Africa. Colin Lewis of the BBC also did some research back in 2007 on this that I recall watching.

    I knew about white vs dark meat, but not about slow vs fast vs super-fast twitch muscle. So intrigued…

    Apropos to “meat in diet”, from https://www.jessicagavin.com/white-meat-vs-dark-meat/ :

    Dark meat
    Turkeys and chickens spend a lot of time walking, so they have more slow-twitch or type 1 muscle fibers in their legs. These fibers allow for aerobic energy production. Oxygen is used in this energy system to convert carbohydrates and fat into fuel. A protein called myoglobin stores oxygen in the muscle cells and gives the meat its darker color.

    Because the aerobic energy system can use fat for fuel, more fat is stored in the legs and thighs. Dark meat has a bit more saturated fat and calories than white meat because of the higher fat content. Additionally, dark meat contains more iron, zinc, riboflavin, thiamine, and vitamin B-12 than white meat.

    Light meat
    White meat is found in the breast and wings. These muscles, used for flight, use explosive force. Fast-twitch muscle fibers also called type 2 muscle fibers, support short bursts of movement. These muscles need fast energy production. The anaerobic energy system is primarily used here. It can break down carbohydrates very quickly without an abundance of oxygen.

    Therefore, the myoglobin content is lower, leading to a lighter color in these muscles. Light meat is also lower in fat than dark meat. Type 2 fibers make energy from carbohydrates not fat, so there isn’t a need to store a lot of fat. This is why white meat has a dryer texture than dark meat and fewer calories.

    Both dark meat and light meat are healthy options. It really comes down to taste and texture preferences.

    (I left that last paragraph in for @jakelafort‘s edification. \grin)

    Malapropos to meat in diet (but still about muscle types), from IndyStar :

    Muscle biopsies were taken on Jackson’s quadricep by researchers at Ball State, who ultimately concluded that a person’s sprinting ability could be partly related to the number of “super-fast” fibers in a person’s legs.

    “The only other athlete model comparable to (Jackson) comes from the animal kingdom,” said Scott Trappe, the lead author of the study, which was recently published in the Journal of Applied Physiology. “Studies have found that cheetahs have about 70 percent MHC IIx content and can reach speeds up to 70 to 75 miles per hour.”

    Researchers also noted that successful racehorses have an abnormally high amount of the MHC IIx fibers.

    Jackson, 48, a Welsh-born sprinter who represented Great Britain and Wales throughout his career, retired in 2003. He later agreed to go to Ball State’s laboratory for muscle testing.

    What researchers said they found was mind boggling.

    Muscle fibers are categorized as slow-twitch, fast-twitch and super fast-twitch.

    Jackson’s total fast-twitch fibers were 46 percent, his super fast- twitch nearly 25 percent and his slow-twitch just 29 percent.

    A typical person’s muscle fiber makeup is roughly 50 percent slow-twitch and 50 percent fast-twitch with less than 2 percent of the super-fast muscle fibers, the report said.

     

    #36286

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    Pope…do you have tits?

    I was going to joke that all popes have tits because they’re old, but I can’t find any appropriate images to present as evidence. I’m going to take a selfie now and ask others to comment…

    #36287

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If it is okay to ascribe superior athletic performance to biological variations in black athletes why is it wrong to ascribe superior intelligence to intellectuals of a certain group? I suppose we don’t have the biological super twitch of intelligence. But even if it is discovered will the proponents of that explanation be given the Charles Murray heave ho?

    #36288

    Unseen
    Participant

    If it is okay to ascribe superior athletic performance to biological variations in black athletes why is it wrong to ascribe superior intelligence to intellectuals of a certain group?

    Yeah, what next? Before you know it, we’ll be thinking “Hey, those East Indians are pretty good at spelling and math” and other twisted racist thoughts. I think it becomes problematic when people get excluded or discouraged from trying their hand at something. Yes, black athletes dominate certain sports just as there’s hardly a year that goes by when the American national spelling bee isn’t won by a kid with ancestral ties to the Indian subcontinent. Maybe there is a genetic difference allowing an East Indian person to better remember words and definitions. It doesn’t mean the rest of us are dumb, just as blacks being better at running and basketball doesn’t mean the rest of us stand no chance.

    The time to worry is when generalization turn into stereotypes and some people are excluded because they are outside the stereotype. “We don’t want Gerry on the team: He’s not black.”

    I can observe that, say, 85% of the time (a number I made up) the winners of marathons are black and wonder if perhaps they have inherited an anatomical advantage, but the other 15% tells me that non-blacks can win, too.

    Something is wrong when fear of not being PC keeps one from making rather obvious observations.

    Most science has come from white people of European ancestry. A racist will conclude that this proves whites are smarter or superior. The non-racist understands that it’s a lot more complicated than that. White Europeans inherit a wealth of advantages ranging from a widespread cultural respect for science, the availability of education and especially higher education, and resources like the Internet and/or well-stocked libraries that simply aren’t there in places like Somalia or Afghanistan or even in small villages in a more advanced country like India or Mexico.

    I observe that blacks tend to excel in some sports. I can only speculate why which is okay as long as my speculations are rational and don’t result from or arise from or result in negative stereotypes

    #36289

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen, that is a reasonable treatment of a delicate topic.

    I think there may be some genetic differences relating to genetics. On the other hand you can always count on humans turning harmless and nebulous findings into social darwinism or bad policy. So on balance it is probably better if the topic is not put under the microscope of science or politics.

    #36290

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen, that is a reasonable treatment of a delicate topic. I think there may be some genetic differences relating to genetics. On the other hand you can always count on humans turning harmless and nebulous findings into social darwinism or bad policy. So on balance it is probably better if the topic is not put under the microscope of science or politics.

    Not permitting discussion of what is hidden is bad enough. Making discussing the obvious out if bounds, THAT strikes me as dangerous thinking. Is there literally some knowledge it’s best not to have?

    #36291

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If i had even the slightest confidence in our species i would not opine as i have but history has lesson after lesson. It is like allowing the gov. to censor some speech. It is pathetic that such a policy is imo necessary but there ya go.

    #36292

    Davis
    Moderator

    If it were properly and thoroughly demonstrated that one race was more intelligent than another then of course it would create a lot of serious problem (a clear justification for stupid racism) but it ought not to be censored. Having said that, it absolutely has NOT been demonstrated. Most testing has been biased towards the kind of intelligence that has emerged from the western democratic education system. But as far as I know, if you test people of different races who have all grown up in the same education system with the same opportunities their results are virtually identical. Comparing a group of say, educated Swedish people trained in at least elementary critical thinking with experience doing logic problems and have spend years in strong study, with say ten random sub-saharan african countries with a different education system, limited resources and an emphasis on different topics…then of course their test results on things like IQ tests or problem solving will be different. It is the same comparing a privileged mostly white private school in Connecticut with mostly black ghetto schools in Baltimore. When black people are adopted and raised in white households their testing is virtually indistinguishable from their siblings (and if there is a minor difference it could easily be attributed to minor biases in the education system). I have read numerous articles about the extreme deficiencies in intelligence testing and comparative racial testing. If we are to make conclusions, it has to be done properly. How do people of different races test when they have been given the same opportunities and have suffered the same (or no) barriers? In fact the history of interracial intelligence testing has been mired in gross racism and bias.

    Also, your physical performance analogy is a pretty bad one. Comparing the super star athletes of one region of East Africa with a specific athletic advantage (say endurance) with those of Europe is hardly the same as comparing the overall intelligence based solely on skin colour (as opposed to say a culturally based cognitive advantage such as aboriginal Australians who seem to have a culturally based advantage in short term memory).

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #36294

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I was not advocating censorship of the topic. That would be going way too far. However it would be better if science and politics avoided the subject because any conclusions of superiority will come to be utilized improperly. The USA for instance had decades of immigration policy directly tied to racist notions promulgated by guys like Madison Grant. It was not simply the infamous Chinese exclusion act. There were quotas on how many Slavs, Jews, Nordics etc. would be permitted entry. That is one example of many.

    You bring up Connecticut. That is where i live. Had a gf who worked in a state agency that fought against racism in education. Turns out that CT has the greatest achievement gap between Whites and minorities in all of USA. Not sure if that is still the case. I imagine it may have changed. The differential is probably explained by racism in the schools. I could tell some funny anecdotes but i will refrain. But when those same minorities were given charter schools they did well and a great percentage went to college.

    Athletic performance is a great deal more amenable to measurement than intelligence. Hell we have no clear definition of intelligence. Are there simply a bundle of aptitudes. Is there general intelligence that is pliable and is consistent in applying critical thinking to various fields and issues. I have for instance known some who are super mathematicians but their reasoning in other areas was subpar. Are IQ tests culturally biased and hopelessly imprecise? How do we account for socioeconomic disadvantage and cultural variations?

    When it comes to race we have another tinder box issue. Does such a concept survive scrutiny? I brought up Charles Murray because Ashkenazic Jews have IQ scores significantly higher than all other tested groups. Some have attributed the higher scores to inbreeding although that did not go well for the Hapsburgs. But Jews have a cultural impetus towards achievement. You are probably correct that it is a weak analogy to compare performance in road races with performance in intelligence testing.

    #36295

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Yeah “intelligence” is rather subjective (and largely cultural). I may do very well at detecting numerical and geometric patterns on paper that would stump my sibling who has some innate ability to tear down and rebuild any engine ever manufactured, including very creative solutions to any stumbling block. Amazing. I doubt if any quick-witted, trivia-regurgitating “Jeopardy” champion could win at any sort a mechanical contest.

    Working with brill engineers over decades…. there were so many that lacked all ability to pick-up nonverbal cues and they would leave a business meeting with a completely different and incorrect impression of what really went down.

    #36297

    Unseen
    Participant

    Comparing a group of say, educated Swedish people trained in at least elementary critical thinking with experience doing logic problems and have spend years in strong study, with say ten random sub-saharan african countries with a different education system, limited resources and an emphasis on different topics…then of course their test results on things like IQ tests or problem solving will be different.

    The tribal African is likely to be far better at tracking a potential kill or in finding drinkable water, while dropping a Swede with a PhD in astronomy in the same situation will likely result in the Swede’s death in a few days.

    I would do away with IQ tests entirely. I don’t think there’s anything there to measure. On the other hand, specific useful skills like memorizing could be related to a inheritable gene sequence and certain bone structures or abilities to rid muscle of waste materials could likewise be genetic and more prominent in some groups than others.

    Intelligence, though, is nebulous and what is measured is going to be what this or that culture values.

    We always need to remind ourselves that every person is an individual and while a group may exhibit a characteristic, many members of the group won’t.

    Back to black runners for a moment. While blacks may get certain physical gifts, when they do get them, more intensely than non-blacks, it may also be the case that 90% of blacks don’t get those gifts. We just notice the blacks who excel.

    Anyway, I object to any topic being too hot to discuss. How can we show racists where they are wrong, for example,. if we leave them to stew in their prejudices?

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