What are all the reasons you don’t believe in Jesus?

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Jesus’ teaching, or commandment, “love God, and love your neighbor as yourself” is better than anything the Western moral philosophers have yet come up with, because it is immediately useful in people’s everyday lives.

It is a nonsensical platitude to anyone other than Christians. God does not exist. If Jesus believed he was the son of god then Jesus was suffering from delusions of grandeur. It is reported that as he was dying on the cross he exclaimed “My God why have you forsaken me!” Christian say this is because he had a moment of doubt as he was in agony. I say he uttered it because at his death he had a moment of clarity and came to understand that god does not exist. Of course all of this is trivial because nobody was recording any of it, if it ever happened. The second half sounds good until you think about it. What if I hate myself? What if my neighbor is Hannibal Lector? What if my neighbors are Boko Haram? One might be more moral by getting all Old Testament on them and smiting them.

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” is a much better line. It is considered the Golden Rule attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of Matthew. It is not unique to the Christian religion. Confucius summarized his rule to live by as “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.” This is often considered the “Silver Rule” and it dates back further than the Christian one.

Both are very reasonable axioms. But I prefer the Chinese version. It may sound like the negative of the Christian one but I think that makes it less “selfish” as it requires that we give consideration to the needs of others first, before we act, while the Christian rule demands we consider our own needs first.

Morals and morality do not need any religious basis or consideration when humanity strives to conduct themselves in society. All human behavior and desires can be explained without referring to the supernatural. That does a disservice to any desires we have to develop a fair and just society and to enable or allow individuals to thrive.

[_Robert_]

As if the people living in tribes and villages and great civilizations for the 200 thousand years or so before the times of Jesus had no clue about trying to be good to each other? Of course they did. Only religions as narrow and presumptuous as the Jewish religion’s afterbirth would claim that as their idea. History has proven that these people of Abraham’s god will justify stuffing each other into gas chambers or burning up “witches” or holding slaves. So much for their “golden rule”.

[Davis]

As if the people living in tribes and villages and great civilizations for the 200 thousand years or so before the times of Jesus had no clue about trying to be good to each other?

It cannot be put any simpler Simon. Christianity did nothing new…except destroy the Roman empire…and a 1000 years of utter stagnation to Europe. It is a second generation recycling of other people’s ideas, a Hodge podge and no it’s not full of love and kind words. Jesus is issuing orders and many of them are scary. You cannot close your eyes and pretend it’s a marginal part of the religion. Jesus scaring people into believing him and justifying mass genocide is disturbing frightening shit. And he offers severe consequences if you don’t follow his orders. The religion in its entire history have magnified that message…consequences…abdozen times more than the love and peace. And no…Christianity didn’t do it better than others but we’re sneakier in their manipulation in growth. It is a religion spread by fear under the guise of hope and has always do used more on prohibitions than on love. You see a happy fuzzy new age Christianity and miss the history of horror … Or worse just refuse to believe the scale of it or that things were so bad. I don’t know how anyone can read the vibe, world history, theology and comparative religions study and somehow thumb put the Christian message as special. It’s meant to scare the shit out of you and there are so so so many other philosophers and even religious figures who have expressed moral ideas a million gazillion times better. No. Jesus is not the fuzzy white lamb as portrayed. He has streaks of tar on him impossible to miss … and not a single thing in Christianity is new, special, exceptional let alone better or worthy of praise. It is ghastly for the most part.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

So, Jesus agreed with Shaftesbury and Diderot. But the Church decided to put its “twisting garden of rules” in place and keep people tied up in knots.

Jesus agreed with Diderot??? Then why did the moral and loving Christian followers of Jesus put their neighbor Diderot in jail for being an atheist?

[Simon Paynton]

Then why did the moral and loving Christian followers of Jesus put their neighbor Diderot in jail for being an atheist?

Because Jesus, and the Church, are two different things.  I’m pretty sure Jesus would have said, “well, it’s your loss” and left it at that.

Davis wrote:

You see a happy fuzzy new age Christianity and miss the history of horror …

That’s a reasonable point.  It seems that religion needs civil or secular society in order to check and balance its worst excesses.  I’m not really a fan of Christianity, although some Christians I find to be impressive.

I think that Jesus’ positive messages became lost for two reasons:  1) the lust for power by the Church and its leaders; 2) patriarchy.

Patriarchy is suspicious of people having fun, because it might lead women into sexual licence, which would never do.

 

[Simon Paynton]

Davis wrote:

Christianity did nothing new…

Jesus’ advocating of forgiveness and self-sacrifice was an innovation.

[Davis]

NO IT WAS NOT NEW SIMON. Neither in religion and most certainly NOT in philosophy. The Greeks covered these themed multiple times and better than Jesus did. You cannot just deny it cause you’ve never read them. Your claim is utterly false. Pick up a book on religious history and comparative religion studies. Forgiveness and self sacrafice are found abound in religions. You’re creating a Christianity that doesn’t exist .cherry picking things that mesh with your own personal philosophy, rewriting Christian history and religious history, ignoring the extent of its toxicity and attributing qualities to this religion that it doesn’t have. I am unable to get it…why you’ll go to such lengths to misrepresent and cover up for a religion you don’t even believe in. If you want the name of some books I’ll give them too you. You need to acquaint yourself with religious history andathe history of philosophy if you’re going to make absolute historical claims. I know little about the history of economics so I wouldn’t claim that the Babylonians created fiat exchange (the oldest civilization I know some things about) unless I had, at the very least, surveyed world history and economics. But I haven’t. So I wouldn’t claim they did something new or exceptional. Maybe they did. I don’t know. I’d have to pick up a book and read it before making such a bold claim

[Simon Paynton]

Yes, I assume that is true.  But Jesus is remembered for those things, because he acted them out in his real life.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

But Jesus is remembered for those things, because he acted them out in his real life.

Remembered by whom? Maybe via the interpretation of the idea of Jesus? There is no evidence for anything Jesus said or did except in the Bible which was written by people who never knew him.

Jesus’ advocating of forgiveness and self-sacrifice was an innovation.

Mostly when asked for or done in the name of his father, the god who does not exist.

Because Jesus, and the Church, are two different things. I’m pretty sure Jesus would have said, “well, it’s your loss” and left it at that.

On whose authority do you make such a claim Simon?

 

[jakelafort]

The reality or historicity of Jesus bores me to no end.

[Simon Paynton]

On whose authority do you make such a claim Simon?

According to the New Testament, all Jesus did was preach and teach, he didn’t try and force anyone to convert.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Simon, once again you are answering questions that I did not ask you.

[Simon Paynton]

I make such a claim with reference to the New Testament.

The Church has a history of torturing people; Jesus did not.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Do you believe Jesus is the son of god?  Do you think Jesus wrote any of the NT? Do you think the people who did write it knew him? Have you sources other than the Bible to verify its authenticity?

While I never mentioned Christianity’s history of torture, I agree that it does. A terrible history including 1500 years of murdering both Christians and non Christians, torturing “heretics” including leading intellectuals, burning thousands of women to death and child rape to list just a few of their vast crimes done in the name of their puny idea of god.

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers. 

   Denis Diderot

 

[Simon Paynton]

Do you believe Jesus is the son of god? Do you think Jesus wrote any of the NT? Do you think the people who did write it knew him? Have you sources other than the Bible to verify its authenticity?

In a way, these things are irrelevant, because the fact is that Jesus’ teachings and stories about him hold water philosophically, and so, whoever was the original cause of the New Testament was a genius.  I think it doesn’t make sense to say that the Biblical Jesus did not exist.  I can accept that there are a few aspects of the NT story that must have come from earlier myths.

[Author]

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