Humanism

Baby steps

This topic contains 27 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 4 months, 4 weeks ago.

Viewing 13 posts - 16 through 28 (of 28 total)
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  • #26478

    Davis
    Participant

    I’m also still pretty amazed that no one has remotely answered a single one of my original questions. It seems that even within these extremely tight parameters, highly limited examples where merit and output and quality are quantifiable and a wage disparity is proven by the data that there is undeniably a problem, would you try to rectify it? It seem like a no brainer. Let’s talk about other issues and factors that have nothing to do with these tight paramaters. Sigh.

    #26482

    Ivy
    Participant

    @davis:

    I’m super confused here, because the whole conversation was about people doing the very same work and getting the same results, and yet women get paid less. This is well documented.

    Can you provide me an example? Some sort of peer reviewed article that proves this to be fact?

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Ivy.
    #26485

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The law exists. Equal Employment Opportunity Act has provisions for equal pay under equal circumstances.

    https://definitions.uslegal.com/e/equal-pay-act/

    This is why most US companies require managers/HR to keep updated records of employee performance, experience, etc. Salary justification and other “cover your ass” considerations has become is a large portion of a managers’ work. Many people who are expert in their field would make great leaders just don’t want to do all that. So we have an army of professional managers who barely know what their people do. It’s the price to enforce fairness.

     

    #26486

    Ivy
    Participant

    I’m also still pretty amazed that no one has remotely answered a single one of my original questions.

     

    I did. You just  didn’t like my answers.

     

    #26491

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    I’m generally in favor of affirmative action measures, but the ones that have passed legislation (and then failed) lack guidelines for monitoring their effects. In particular, specific measurements from specific agencies should be outlined and periodically reconsidered, including guidelines for how to taper off every affirmative action program over a specified period of time.

    But Affirmative Action may never fly again, especially during these Trumpian times of privileged classes of people claiming victimhood (ala “reverse discrimination”). Social welfare consciousness atm gets the evil stamp of “not our problem, shutup and appreciate ‘Murica more”.

    You’re asking this in the scope of a worldwide issue, which is difficult to address as a unified, legislatively-practical solution. My ex now living in Japan faces roomfulls of men every day who don’t appreciate or respect her status, a status that is in reality more appreciated here in the States. It is also clearly a cultural issue that requires caring and change from within.

    Perhaps the recent increase in women in American legislatures (in direct response to Trumpianism) will improve awareness and social measures.

    And a “raise the tide for all boats” consideration should of course include more general social welfare issues such as increasing quality childhood education, nutrition and health, and (imo) more legislative and cultural appreciation of the importance of the role of motherhood along with increased recognition throughout the lifetime of those who both raised children and then choose to come back into the workforce.

    #26493

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    So is this law gonna force corporations to give equal raises to underperforming minority professionals?

    So I may not have thought this out thoroughly enough, but I don’t like the idea of requiring companies to comply with affirmative action laws. There’s too much litigation involved as a remedy after the fact of alleged infringement.

    Back to the thought about treating this as a social welfare issue, I like the idea more of enabling traditionally underated and underpaid people, in this specific case moms who chose to raise a child and then join the work force later.

    As a veteran, I see benefits like this all the time. Companies are not required by law to hire a specific percentage of veterans, but companies are sometimes compensated for hiring them. Why couldn’t a process like this also work for the moms who spend almost two decades raising our children? This would be a more proactive, address the need before it goes to litigation process.

    #26495

    Davis
    Participant

    As about comprehensive as you can get is a meta-meta study of meta-analysis andatheir own meta-analysis  done over several decades which rigourously control various factors which people usually use as excuses for why women who are equally productive make less than men. The result is: things have gotten better, which points to a recognition of the problem, but the disparity is still great and a lot of that narrowing of the gap is due to proactive programs.

    https://econpapers.repec.org/article/blajecsur/v_3a19_3ay_3a2005_3ai_3a3_3ap_3a479-511.htm

    Let me know if you’d like more.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Davis.
    #26497

    Davis
    Participant

    Ivy I don’t know what your answer actually is. Would you try to rectify a wage gap that is objectively demonstrated? Yes or no. Maybe is also allowed. But “there are more important things to worry about” or listing speculative theories of why it might happen (totally irrelevant to a discussion on a case where something objectively demonstrated, through the use of gender stereotypes…is not an answer. That’s a side distraction.

    I’m trying to see if people are even capable, amongst the narrowest of limits, where there is no doubt there is an unfair wage gap…if people would make an effort to rectify it. That’s all. A yes or no will do. Or a maybe with an interesting explanation.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Davis.
    #26499

    Davis
    Participant

    Pope my question was extremely specific and very local. Would you vote in a referendum to rectify problems in wage gaps where age or pregnancy is not an issue and productivity is the same. I didn’t ask if you supported affirmative action or universal wage fairness. This referendum would happen wherever you personally live. You can vote yes or no .The question is extremely specific and arrow. The results have no bearing on any other law or policy. Would you vote for the government to rectify unjustified wage-disparity for +45 workers where productivity/quality is equivalent? There’s nothing in there about who should be hired, getting more women in the workplace or promoting women more. I mean fixing a demonstrable wage gap of people working now…in equivalent jobs with equivalent productivity.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Davis.
    #26501

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Would you vote in a referendum to rectify problems in wage gaps where age or pregnancy is not an issue and productivity is the same.

    I would probably vote yes for a fair pay act if such a law did not exist. It is not clear how it would be determined if discrimination exists; salary information is usually private and compensation packages are often more complicated than a simple paycheck.

    If an employee suspects discrimination and files a complaint that ends up being unfounded that employee should not be retaliated against. I admire whistleblower laws as well.

    #26502

    Ivy
    Participant

    @davis

    A few problems with this study that jumped out at me:

    1. Although published in 2005, they took data from 1960-1990….That’s….30-60 years ago. Do you have anything more recent (like within the past 5 years?)…

     

    Secondly, it even says in the paper that “a continuous, even moderate equalization of the sexes is taking place…(p. 508)

    Thirdly (and perhaps more importantly), it states very clearly both in the conclusion and in other parts of the paper that the meta-analysis is reporting the data but cannot draw conclusions about discrimination or the sources thereof….

    So….it doesn’t “prove” that men make more than women in the same job just because they are male. It doesn’t say that at all…It actually is stating that as of 30-60 years ago the gap was greatly improving…..and that’s from before I was born til I was about 9 years old…

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Ivy.
    #26504

    Ivy
    Participant

    Oh and the answer to your questions is “maybe.”…

    #26567

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Here’s a recent radio programme on BBC Radio 4 about the “gender pay gap”.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0005t3n

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