Sunday School

[jakelafortParticipant]

Hope it wasn’t a Zebco.

Fortunes are made on comparitively small investments.

I had an uncle who was brilliant but not able to function. As a child he would always go to a brokerage after school. (He dropped out of school before 10th grade) Anyways he had a stock he loved and my dad begged his to buy it. But nobody in his family listened. It took off. My uncle earned a reputation as a whiz kid and a millionaire offered to take his stock tips in return for 10 percent profit on all transactions. It was not enough for him. He refused. Even later in life as he was destitute and i helped him financially and went to court on his behalf he had a superiority complex. A normal person would have felt so badly about their life.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

heatherspoonheim wrote:

Come to think of it – that may apply to me.

I definitely have some autistic traits but I don’t feel I’m on the spectrum.  I don’t feel a shock of recognition when I hear what it is like for people.

I like things to be neat and orderly and I’ve been told (by a boss who didn’t like me) that I’ve got an organised mind.  I’m good at maths.  The thing I seem to go in for most is “analysis”.  I have a nephew who is non-verbal and hyper-intelligent (he communicates through a letter board, and he taught himself to read and write, when everyone thought he had the abilities of an eighteen-month-old).

Beyond that, this is good for creativity:

[_Robert_Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

Hope it wasn’t a Zebco. Fortunes are made on comparitively small investments. I had an uncle who was brilliant but not able to function. As a child he would always go to a brokerage after school. (He dropped out of school before 10th grade) Anyways he had a stock he loved and my dad begged his to buy it. But nobody in his family listened. It took off. My uncle earned a reputation as a whiz kid and a millionaire offered to take his stock tips in return for 10 percent profit on all transactions. It was not enough for him. He refused. Even later in life as he was destitute and i helped him financially and went to court on his behalf he had a superiority complex. A normal person would have felt so badly about their life.

I just invested in the global index funds. Can’t complain. I retired on my 58th birthday. I didn’t hate my engineering job, but so many things I’d rather be doing. Well, I guess I did hate parts of my job, LOL.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Simon, i’ve been asked if i have autism. Other than sensitivity to noises and weirdness with language including speaking backwards i don’t think so. My theory of mind and high empathy along with pig pig sooiee disorganized and untidy ways suggests no.

I had to look up language board. What is your nephew’s diagnosis?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@jakelafort – I’ve been asked it a few times as well.  I just don’t fit the picture.

My nephew is as autistic as it’s possible to be, apparently.  He’s a nice young man.  There was a scandal about language boards a few years ago, my nephew faced a lot of cognitive dissonance from professionals who insisted he was an imbecile.  This article is shite.  He’s written essays and everything.

Before he learned to use the letter board, he used to cry and bang his head on the floor.  After that, he stopped.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

@jakelafort – I’ve been asked it a few times as well. I just don’t fit the picture. My nephew is as autistic as it’s possible to be, apparently. He’s a nice young man. There was a scandal about language boards a few years ago, my nephew faced a lot of cognitive dissonance from professionals who insisted he was an imbecile. This article is shite. He’s written essays and everything. Before he learned to use the letter board, he used to cry and bang his head on the floor. After that, he stopped.

It’s almost like some people, like autists have less “free will” due to biological/chemical reasons. A limited set of responses when compared to a plot of typical responses. Unless it’s actually damage to their “free-wheeling, spiritual souls” or something, LOL.

[_Robert_Participant]

Looking at the recent murder of an Insurance CEO and the attempts on Trump, it seems that anti-right wing, anti-Trump, anti-conservative young white males know how to buy a gun and pull a trigger. Christian Nationals and Corporate/MAGA officials live in a physically more dangerous world now. Perhaps the proposed “draining of the swamp” cuts to “deep state” federal law enforcement agencies will not be so urgent, LOL.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Robert writes:

It’s almost like some people, like autists have less “free will” due to biological/chemical reasons. A limited set of responses when compared to a plot of typical responses. Unless it’s actually damage to their “free-wheeling, spiritual souls” or something, LOL.

Took the words right out of Sapolsky’ mouth. His book Determined dispatches every free will argument ever made. And it is pretty cool read because Sapolsky at once exhibits assuredness and humility as he tackles all of the arguments. Apart from cementing my opinion re.free will there is a great deal i learned about the natural world. He has a section on quantum where he acknowledges his limitations but from my ignorant perspective handles it with aplomb and distills a complex area to the satisfaction of one not terribly versed in physics. It is the only book where i read almost all of the footnotes. Very interesting read.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

His book Determined dispatches every free will argument ever made.

I still haven’t heard any argument in favour of the non-existence of free will apart from “if free will exists, we can’t work it out” – the argument from ignorance.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Simon, the starting point for free will, god, or any popular belief puts the burden of proof on the proponent. So if Sapolsky refutes all of the arguments he has won the day.

If i had to give a synopsis of his argument against free will it is that decisions feel free but are actually the result of causes over which we have zero control. He demonstrates again and again that hormones and childhood experiences and biological processes determine our actions.

And if you think about it in terms of evolution didn’t life arise and operate completely without awareness? And yet amoeba and later paramecium and up the line in complexity interacted with environments to eat and avoid being eaten and to reproduce and one might impute consciousness.

And yet those matters apparently occurred without a sense of self. At some point that changed and the feeling of agency arose. Given that past and how much physics and biology prove causative agents are making us decide and act this way and that it is really truly up to the proponent to show it aint so.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Simon, the starting point for free will, god, or any popular belief puts the burden of proof on the proponent. So if Sapolsky refutes all of the arguments he has won the day.

I’d say that whoever is making a claim, has a burden of proof to prove or demonstrate the truth of that claim.  However, you can’t prove a negative, so I’ll let Sapolsky off.

If he has an actual argument to put forward, rather than “you can’t prove it’s not”, that’s a bonus.

decisions feel free but are actually the result of causes over which we have zero control. He demonstrates again and again that hormones and childhood experiences and biological processes determine our actions.

There’s a difference between influencing something and determining it.  I am influenced by all kinds of factors when I make a decision, yet I can choose to override many of them.

And if you think about it in terms of evolution didn’t life arise and operate completely without awareness? And yet amoeba and later paramecium and up the line in complexity interacted with environments to eat and avoid being eaten and to reproduce and one might impute consciousness.

A bacterium has “proto-emotions” – many of them can move towards pleasant environments and away from toxic ones.  That’s all emotions are: they identify and flag up opportunities and threats.  Is that proto-consciousness?  I don’t know.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Simon it is nothing but carping but not all claims have a burden. Evolution for instance. And in legal parlance there are matters that the court will take judicial notice meaning no evidence necessary. But yea we agree for all intents there.

I’d use the word influence too if i wanted to rationalize free will. Read the book if you dear. And consider the tendency to rationalize human centric issues. How hard would it be for the common man dolt to grasp how silly god beliefs are were it not for our personal stake and indoctrination?

I asked ai do bacteria have proto emotions.

While bacteria do not have emotions in the way humans do, research suggests they can respond to environmental stimuli in ways that could be interpreted as resembling basic “proto-emotions,” meaning they can sense and react to changes in their environment, even exhibiting variations in behavior depending on the situation, similar to how an organism might react to a positive or negative stimulus; however, they lack the complex neurological systems necessary for experiencing emotions as we understand them.

That is consistent with the idea of life having appearance of sentience or consciousness at the most primitive level. And that is true of plants and fungi. At what point does free will appear? Is it with chimps and gorillas also? Whales?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Evolution for instance.

The claim of evolution requires proof.  However, we already have a wealth of supporting evidence for it, including predictive power.

At what point does free will appear? Is it with chimps and gorillas also? Whales?

I’d say it depends on cognitve power, intelligence and flexibility.  So, humans have a lot of it.  Presumably it requires the ability to consciously deliberate between different behavioural options.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Presumably it requires the ability to consciously deliberate between different behavioural options.

Or maybe we are merely consciously informed of the decision we believe we made, since the brain is just matter and energy, like pile of rocks tumbling down a hillside.  One rock bounced left, the other to the right. Did you see that?

[jakelafortParticipant]

Tumble tumble
Little world
How our
Matter and energy
whirled
Did those rocks
imbue your sense
or is free will
for the dumb
and dense?

[Author]

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