Sunday School

[fullermingjr]

@TheEncogitationer

“Well, I don’t believe in learning other languages. I believe God gave men different tongues and divided them at The Tower of Babel and that’s how it’s meant to be.”

How very sad!  The woman’s faith system that said that statement… that thinks humanity should be divided this way has completely missed (a) the point of Babel and (b) the nature of man as presented in the text, regardless of one’s belief or non-belief.  Even taking these stories as teaching some kind of moral lessons such as The Myth of Sisyphus or The Myth of Icarus the son of Daedalus, this woman missed the point! Of course, I don’t equate Greek Myths with my faith – I see Christianity as viable (and I know many here do not). My point is this: Even if you took the Babel story as a myth, the point of the myth was missed by this woman. How much more so, for someone like me, who does not take it as a myth. – but that is a completely different topic. Even so, one could tolerate her beliefs and maybe an opportunity may arise where a real dialog could happen.

Of course, you can’t mandate what customers say, as long as they are not threating people physically. If I was told to my face that I was a fool for believing in God, I hope I would have enough maturity to nod and smile. Even Jakelafort responded to me in his response where he included the phrase, “…of course religion is make believe…” but hey, I’m not mad – I’m a believer in an Atheist forum 😉

Even so, customers should not be giving out their tracks unless they strike up a friendly conversation with another customer or even an employee and it’s a personal interaction. I’ve been invited to secular, anti-religious events and activities, especially when I worked at the University of Maryland College Park. When stuff is put on your car, it is frustrating. I just throw it away. I consider it an advertisement like anything else. How many flyers want me to buy this gadget or subscribe to that service – it’s constant and irritating, but I just throw it away.

With all that said, I don’t think it is possible, in a pluralistic society to avoid some of this, including marketing, philosophizing, proselytizing, and the like. However, it can be better managed and I just want things to be reasonably equal. The article showed a problem: the head of an agency not sending out a cultural message (e.g. Happy Easter) but a religious message (Jesus Rose from the Dead). Somewhere is a healthy, policy-driven, realistic approach that can allow the non-theist and the theist to work together.

It is sad to me that there are many people of faith that buy into religious systems that are overtly illogical. I know – some on this forum think ALL religious systems are overly illogical.  However, critiquing weak or inconsistent expressions of faith isn’t the same as conceding that all faith is irrational.

Regardless, thanks for your thoughts!

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by fullermingjr.

[Strega]

@fullermingjr No religion is rational by the very definition of the word rational – derived from logic and reason etc.

A religion is by definition a faith based construct, for which belief  is required, not reason.

A Venn diagram of Religion and Rationality would barely touch at their potential meeting point.
I suppose Religion could be arational – that might fit.

Anyway, do carry on 🙂

[jakelafort]

Yes, Fuller, i did say and i do mean that religion is make-believe.

Were it not for indoctrination and the personal stake and emotions of wish thinking then god(s) would be as easy to discard as Santa Clause or fill in the blank. It is childish. It is infantile. But we are human and there you are.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fullermingjr:

Even so, one could tolerate her beliefs and maybe an opportunity may arise where a real dialog could happen.

As I recall from my reading, the gods mentioned in both The Tower of Babel myth and the Icarrus myth were jealous gods who didn’t want Man getting literally uppity. Believers in gods like these can’t possibly have a high view of human beings, so I doubt any dialog is possible except for the futile type seen too often in YouTube videos that conclude with Be it resolved: nothing.

You wrote:

Yet, when I am forced to embrace a value system that overtly denies certain metaphysical claims in the workplace, and I say, “thanks, but I don’t believe we evolved…” for example, the retaliation can be just as real and painful, accusing me of denying science or worse.

But I am often forced to embrace the ideas of – for example – prioritizing psychological thought patterns over physical realities (e.g. Transgenderism).

So what exact job do you do where you are forced to embrace Evolution or Transgenderism? Inquiring minds want to know…

[TheEncogitationer]

Reg:

Remember Kim Davis in Kentucky? She was an elected county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Courts ordered her to comply. She refused and was briefly jailed for contempt of court.

Can a public official refuse to carry out a legal duty because of personal beliefs? There are two fundamentally different ways to look at this.

The first is “No, her role comes first”. She was acting as the state, not as a private individual and legally the law required her to issue licenses. Personal beliefs can’t override legal obligations in a public office.

The second is “Yes, conscience still matters”. She shouldn’t be forced to act against deeply held beliefs, and the state could have accommodated her (maybe, delegated her duties). There are limits on what the state can compel individuals to do. When is accommodation reasonable vs. when does it undermine the role itself?

Religious bodies can set their own rules on which marriages they wish to recognize. However, governments are required to treat all citizens as equals before the law, so if a clerk of court doesn’t want to issue a marriage licence to a same-sex couple, there needs to be another official acting instead to do so.

If no other official is available, while the clerk of court might not should be jailed, the clerk of court made a bad choice of careers and others shouldn’t be impared from exercising their rights for it.

[TheEncogitationer]

FullermingJr:

Even so, customers should not be giving out their tracks unless they strike up a friendly conversation with another customer or even an employee and it’s a personal interaction.

I should have added earlier: If religionists wish to give out literature on a street corner while picking up any litter and allowing free movement of pedestrians or if they want to rent a table at a swap meet or flea market or have a reading room, they are perfectly free to do so. No soliciting signs, however, should be respected for homes or businesses.

[fullermingjr]

@TheEncogitationer

Ok, that’s a fair question. The word “forced” is too strong. In the article, the employee was offended by the email. I mean “forced” in a similar way. The issue is corporate culture, and indeed, the broader culture. You asked where I work. I have worked in higher education for over 35 years as staff and recently as faculty, and I have watched the broader culture change. The changes in culture and law involve gender, pronouns, marriage, and related, and thus these changes impact corporate environments including policy.

Major cultural shifts require many people to question their assumptions, language, expectations, and even deeply held beliefs about reality. In earlier generations, Americans had to confront major changes about race and that was not easy. My point is not that the issues are identical, but that cultural change often places real psychological pressure on people to adapt.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fullermingjr:

You wrote:

You asked where I work. I have worked in higher education for over 35 years as staff and recently as faculty, and I have watched the broader culture change. The changes in culture and law involve gender, pronouns, marriage, and related, and thus these changes impact corporate environments including policy.

I see.

Are you Faculty in a department of a Hard Science or a Social Science or Humanities?

I don’t need to know the name of your University or College, of course. I just wanted to understand the context where the conflict over views on Evolution or Transgenderism was taking place.

[jakelafort]

Yeah man, Enco.

Beliefs. How many times have i heard sentiments along the lines, ‘i don’t care about other’s beliefs as long as it does not affect me.’ Fooling a human is no more difficult than a dog that we train. There is nobody home in the majority of cases in which humans are hoodwinked by you name the ideology: communism, palestinianism, cults, nazism, religions, emperor worship…

How many 10s or 100s of millions have died as a direct result of beliefs? Without looking at a search engine a group of educated people could come up with the goods to back the numbers i have given. Pol Pot was not a Scot.

Once those beliefs are formed and integrated into personal identity they are guarded like the crown jewels. The coherence of those beliefs paramount. Thus arguments and evidence or absence of evidence or even motivation for lies that underlie that belief are discarded. Preservation of the rationally indefensible gets top billing. Were it to end there it would be horrible but when it leaks into behavior, nay when it causes behavior that makes an uninfected human retch it is fulfilled its viral path.

I started watching a series and it indicates in text that there are some 2k cults in UK. So i looked at USA…10K. I already have a very low opinion of the masses…not sure that has come through. Yet it surprised me the prevalence of cults. And once again i have to wonder whether critical thinking as a major part of education is sufficient to counter belief thinking or should i say circumventing thinking.

[jakelafort]

By 1st grade our critical thinking students ought to be leary of hero worship, of any system of thought that requires faith. Oh my aching back latch. How stupid to drop your guard and accept on “good authority” the BS that follows.

If ya ain’t got the goods shut your fucking mouth or sell it to somebody who is no brighter than a rock baking in the sun.

[jakelafort]

Can you imagine the opposition to critical thinking as a key aspect of curriculum K through 12 and into higher ed? The opposition to opposition of the imposition of reason would be viewed as treason. Parents having little Johny and Jane asking questions about the bs in the temple, mosque or church? They would freak. Magas would go wild. Obviously religious institutions hard pass. Politicians don’t want an electorate that can think. And religious institutions…Shit we burned people alive when we had the power. Still do in Islamic cultures.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake:

How many 10s or 100s of millions have died as a direct result of beliefs? Without looking at a search engine a group of educated people could come up with the goods to back the numbers i have given. Pol Pot was not a Scot.

There was one scholar who compiled the numbers of people murdered by their own government, not including warfare, in just the Twentieth Century. The low-ball is 272 million and could be as many as 400 million:

R.J. Rummel–Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._J._Rummel

WARNING: If you dig deeper into his work, none of the visuals and text are pleasant for night browsing…Or anytime really.

I started watching a series and it indicates in text that there are some 2k cults in UK. So i looked at USA…10K. I already have a very low opinion of the masses…not sure that has come through. Yet it surprised me the prevalence of cults.

I’ve heard several Murphy’s Law definitions of cults that are both amusing and plausible:

The difference between a religion and a cult is that the cult has a live founder.

The difference between a religion and a cult is three generations.

The difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult is something we don’t like.

And don’t get me started on lemon bars, punch, and hot dish in the Fellowship Hall after the services.

[jakelafort]

Enco,

Funny stuff on cult/religion. Funny cuz of its accuracy. And as i’ve indicated here a discreet cult of say 500 carrying on precisely as hard core Muslims would be viewed as a departure from any form of decent way to live. Cult members would be seen as victims who outside world helps to deprogram.

The deliberate entanglement in the concept of islamophobia between racism and religion turns that victim narrative of cults on its head.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake:

It never helps when those who proport to fight hateful, deadly ideologies turn around and assist them. Or when the Department of Justice is run by a drunk frat boy:

Civil rights organization indicted for paying informants in hate groups
Apr 21, 2026 at 01:33 PM EDT
Updated Apr 21, 2026 at 06:48 PM EDT
Eva Fedderly, Ally Heath
https://san.com/cc/civil-rights-group-that-criticized-charlie-kirk-says-it-faces-criminal-investigation/

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake:

It never helps when those who proport to fight hateful, deadly ideologies turn around and assist them. Or when the FBI is run by a drunk frat boy:

Civil rights organization indicted for paying informants in hate groups
Apr 21, 2026 at 01:33 PM EDT
Updated Apr 21, 2026 at 06:48 PM EDT
Eva Fedderly, Ally Heath
https://san.com/cc/civil-rights-group-that-criticized-charlie-kirk-says-it-faces-criminal-investigation/

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Correction: FBI, not the Department of Justice

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