Sunday School

Sunday School July 30th 2023.

This topic contains 76 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 77 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #49480

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    To me, both notions seem preposterous, but of the two (b) seems by far the most possible, given what we know of physics and cosmology. Please review my analysis.

    You’ve never responded to a scenario of mine (more than once) that’s unlike the two choices you’re suggesting.

    #49481

    Unseen
    Participant

    As Yoda once said, “The guilt tripping, pretty heavy it is.”

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #49483

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    As Yoda once said, “The guilt tripping, pretty heavy it is.”

    No, it was just an observation/challenge. And now I can double down on it. 🙂

    #49484

    Unseen
    Participant

    As Yoda once said, “The guilt tripping, pretty heavy it is.”

    No, it was just an observation/challenge. And now I can double down on it. 🙂

    LOL You’re responding to something I wrote about Davis’s post.

    #49485

    Unseen
    Participant

    To me, both notions seem preposterous, but of the two (b) seems by far the most possible, given what we know of physics and cosmology. Please review my analysis.

    You’ve never responded to a scenario of mine (more than once) that’s unlike the two choices you’re suggesting.

    Where? I looked at your prior posts going back 17 days and it looks like all of the posts until today have been in the Woke Movies and Covid Shenanigans threads. (?????)

    #49487

    Autumn
    Participant

    And yet, once again, this is how the “debate” is being characterised.

    The scare quotes around ‘debate’ pretty much sums up the sentiment. Most of what I hear is a lot of noise that kills any actual debate or discussion. And I’ve been that noise before, especially as a teenager on the rights and affairs of Indigenous Peoples. I wasn’t ill-intentioned, but I was entitled, arrogant, ignorant, and thin-skinned, and I was dragging any real conversations that were happening backwards.

    So I get what it’s like to be on that side of things. I didn’t think of myself as causing harm back then because that really wasn’t my goal. I just hadn’t grown enough as a person to know how not to make other people’s human rights about my emotional bullshit.

    But I’m not a teen anymore, and I respect myself not to keep carrying on like that, playing the victim and acting like if people don’t want to hear my naive bullshit on full blast and repeat that I am somehow being silenced or some shit. When it comes to trans issues, I get to see and live the other side of that dynamic. I wish I could show it to my teenage self as a warning to not be that. Anything but that.

    That’s the gist of what I wrote.

    #49489

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The scare quotes around ‘debate’ pretty much sums up the sentiment. Most of what I hear is a lot of noise that kills any actual debate or discussion.

    Unfortunately there is a lot of noise coming from both sides, that doesn’t necessarily help anybody.  I don’t mean you @autumn but some of the more knee-jerking trans activists, and reactionaries on the opposite side.

    #49490

    Autumn
    Participant

    Unfortunately there is a lot of noise coming from both sides, that doesn’t necessarily help anybody. I don’t mean you @autumn but some of the more knee-jerking trans activists, and reactionaries on the opposite side.

    As a generalization, we have to make noise just to be heard. They have to make noise to make sure we aren’t heard. It’s not the same.

    #49491

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    It’s not the same.

    I can see your point: one side is fighting for their own rights; the other is fighting to prevent them having rights.

    At the same time, it’s not quite as simple as that, since there’s a kind of “three-body problem” – some feminists feel that cisgendered women’s rights are threatened by certain transgender rights – they’re fighting for their own rights too, as they see it.

    Also there is the Christian Right who see – what? threatened.  I’m not sure.  I think they’re a bit hysterical.  Probably they’re just very culturally conservative.

     

    #49492

    Autumn
    Participant

    At the same time, it’s not quite as simple as that…

    Why are you trying to educate me on this? You know I am vastly more familiar with this topic than you, yes? Or were you merely thinking aloud for your own sake?

    I am well aware of oppositional arguments at length as well as the development of these arguments. If I tried to speak on this topic with the full depth and breadth it deserves, it would be so long and convoluted as to be unreadable unless I wrote a whole ass book. While I am sure there are those who genuinely feel their rights are being lessened by others gaining legal protections, this doesn’t alter the fact that pitting one set of human rights up against another is a common tactic for derailing human rights movements along with ‘protect the women and children’.

    And of course it gains traction because no one wants to see themselves as bigoted, so if they can say “I am not against group A; I’m just protecting group B” that feels a whole lot better. For example, the issue with trans women and inmate housing. It’s raised as a concern over sexual violence. But here’s the thing: sexual violence in women’s prisons is staggeringly common, enough so that trans inmates almost certainly don’t make a statistical blip. Now it may be true that there are inmates who genuinely have a greater fear of trans women than cisgender women or male prison staff, and it may also be true that trans policies for prisons may require careful consideration. But what’s fishy is that the concern for women’s safety in prisons as a social issue seems to begin and end with trans inmates. Is that genuine concern, or is that women’s safety being used as a wedge issue? Which is not to suggest that no one has genuine concern for female inmates, but by and large, the use of them as a wedge issue derails a more complex and nuanced conversation that was already going on.

    Likewise with issues like sports policies and trans care for youth. It’s not that there are no difficult, complex and nuanced conversations to be had here. It’s that those conversations are drowned out by noise when they are used as props in an anti-trans rights push. Suddenly people who never gave a shit about women’s sports are demanding they be fair, but only so far as the exclusion of trans women is concerned, ’cause if we’re talking any other facet of fairness in women’s sports then the only people who give a shit are female athletes and a subset of feminists, I suppose. But at the end of the day we still don’t land on anything resembling fairness in sports because sports aren’t fair, typically not to women, people with intersex conditions, people with disabilities, were income/ wealth inequality is concerned, and trans people can just be tacked on to what is probably a much longer list than I managed.

     

    #49493

    Strega
    Moderator

    Hi Autumn :). I’m learning. I really appreciate your ability to capture these issues in writing so clearly. Please don’t forget what you told me once, many years ago.

    For all the visible readers and posters, there’s a multiplication of people we reach who read without commenting.

    xxx

    #49494

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    were you merely thinking aloud

    That, and aiming for you to say stuff about it.

    #49495

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Try as you may it is pointless and sophomoric to educate me on horse racing, Robert on music or Enco on Looney Tunes!

    #49498

    Unseen
    Participant

    I can see your point: one side is fighting for their own rights; the other is fighting to prevent them having rights.

    So, thinking out loud that it’s very very strange that seemingly all of a sudden people—especially children—are discovering that Nature gave them the wrong genitals is a way of suppressing people’s rights? To many, the idea that the genetic code made a major blunder is so unlikely that it’s akin to believing you’re really a different species. To find that highly ponderable isn’t hate or an attack on human rights.

    #49502

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    So, thinking out loud that it’s very very strange that seemingly all of a sudden people—especially children—are discovering that Nature gave them the wrong genitals is a way of suppressing people’s rights?

    Some people may think it’s strange, and what that means is that some people think it’s strange, like a lot of things.

    I believe the situation is that biological and psychological gender are two distinct things that don’t always match up.

    To find that highly ponderable isn’t hate or an attack on human rights.

    I think you have a point.  Some people apparently say it is.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 77 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.