Sunday School

[UnseenParticipant]

Apples and oranges.

LGB is about which gender one finds attractive, pleasurable to be with, and sexually satisfying.

What is the etiology of genitalia dysphoria? I mean, wanting to fix a club foot or straighten a nose is easy to understand. There’s a physical defect involved. Wanting the other gender’s genitalia is puzzling and implies an etiology in deep psychology somewhere.

Is having the wrong genitals a physical fact? How could it be? It’s psychology at heart, not physiology.

[—Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Should it be fixed by changing their psychological orientation?  I don’t think that’s possible.  Pray the gay away?

There are interesting parallels. Obviously on the social side, the moralization and stigmatization of sexual orientation and of gender identity aren’t just parallel but directly overlapping. When we look at it from a medical angle, both also went through a similar process of pathologization.

In the late 50s, homosexuality was listed as a mental disorder  under the category of “sociopathic personality disturbance” in the DSM. Various techniques were tried in an effort to cure homosexuality such as aversion therapy where gay men would be shown images of naked men while being given electric shocks or subjected to induced vomiting. This would be followed up with positive reinforcement toward dating women. It was not known to be effective.

By the 70s, the APA took a vote on the classification of homosexuality with about 60% voting to remove it as a metal illness from the DSM and 40% voting to retain it. Instead they modified the diagnosis so that it referred only to those in conflict with their sexual orientation. By the late 80s homosexuality was completely removed as a mental illness from the DSM; however, to this day reparative therapy/ conversion therapy persists, though typically in a religious setting rather than clinical.

We’ve seen a very similar path regarding the pathologization of trans identities. There is an added complication that for those seeking medical transition, usually some diagnostic terminology is required for various reasons. But the move away from treating trans identities as a disease in need of curing is based on a long history of clinical treatment.

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

Apples and oranges.

Both are varieties of fruit.

Autumn wrote:

But the move away from treating trans identities as a disease in need of curing is based on a long history of clinical treatment.

Yes, something is only a disorder, in my opinion, if it harms the self or others.  It’s society that has harmed both gay and trans people.

[—Participant]

That is one of the significant shifts in contemporary psychology/ psychiatry. There was a point in time where you were disordered for basically failing to be normal.

[StregaModerator]

Gotta love it when a straight guy tells a lesbian what lesbians are up to these days.

After I stop laughing….  No I will stop…. Pahahahaha

on a more serious note, LGBTQIA are all oppressed groups. The only grouping they have is that they’ve all experienced massive discrimination and abuse from the standard “Man+Woman MUST=Baby” opinions.

Think about it.

What do lesbians and gay guys have in common?  Nothing. Nothing at all. Except discrimination because their bodies aren’t rubbing bodies in the format society expects.

They are grouped into LGBTQIA by society so they can be labelled ‘outsiders’. Not by any of us.

Now you think LGB are depressed that T are dragging them back to the dark years, and want to shed them?

Thats so insane I’m not even going to say the obvious stuff.

(does anyone here know if the AZ rules allow me to describe that ^ up there as “a load of bollocks”?)

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Yes, something is only a disorder, in my opinion, if it harms the self or others.  It’s society that has harmed both gay and trans people.

Don’t lump gays and trans people together unless you want to include every other minority who feel left behind, laughed at, excluded with them. Blacks, Asians, women, overweight people, skinny people, the elderly, clumsy people, nerds, geeks, dweebs, and dorks, and on and on.

The LGB’s, as I pointed out, are about something totally different from the trans thing. One is about sexual preferences, the other about nature supposedly making a horrendous mistake when dishing out genitals.

If people got the wrong genitalia and it’s not mental to whatever degree, then it should be factual with worldly evidence backed up by logical arguments, shouldn’t it?

If someone wants to change their gender, they have every right to do so as adults. Children are a different story.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Unseen.

[UnseenParticipant]

Strega wrote:

What do lesbians and gay guys have in common?  Nothing. Nothing at all. Except discrimination because their bodies aren’t rubbing bodies in the format society expects.

Come on, lesbians and gays have something in common: a sexual preference for their own gender. Gays don’t think they’re not really men and lesbians don’t think they’re not really women.

That is the distinction between LG and B as opposed to T.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

Don’t lump gays and trans people together unless you want to include every other minority who feel left behind, laughed at, excluded with them.

They’re discriminated against on the basis of sexuality and gender preference.  Those are similar enough to lump them in together.  Also, as @autumn says, they overlap quite heavily.

[—Participant]

Unseen wrote:

Strega wrote:

What do lesbians and gay guys have in common? Nothing. Nothing at all. Except discrimination because their bodies aren’t rubbing bodies in the format society expects.

Come on, lesbians and gays have something in common: a sexual preference for their own gender. Gays don’t think they’re not really men and lesbians don’t think they’re not really women. That is the distinction between LG and B as opposed to T.

Imagine you say “Er ist mein Freund,” to a native German speaker.

He replies to you, “He’s your boyfriend? I wasn’t aware you dated men. How long have you been together?”

You reply, “No, in German ‘Freund’ means male friend.”

A look of realization dawns on his face. “Ah! A common confusion. ‘Mein Freund’ is how we say my boyfriend. If you want to say your friend, you should say “ein Freund.”

Now at this point, accepting that he is a native speaker and knows more about the spoken language than you, do you say, “Ah, thanks for the clarification,” or do you say, “No, in German ‘Freund’ means male friend,” which while technically correct, is also something he obviously already knows and considered when he gave you his clarification? I can tell you which of those two you are doing to Strega right now.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Autumn wrote:

A look of realization dawns on his face. “Ah! A common confusion. ‘Mein Freund’ is how we say my boyfriend. If you want to say your friend, you should say “ein Freund.”

Yes, try saying “I am hot” to a French person.

[—Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Autumn wrote:

A look of realization dawns on his face. “Ah! A common confusion. ‘Mein Freund’ is how we say my boyfriend. If you want to say your friend, you should say “ein Freund.”

Yes, try saying “I am hot” to a French person.

I was not aware of this one. Had to look it up just now. I would have said ‘Je suis chaude,’ over ‘J’ai chaud.’

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Or just ‘fait chaud’  ??

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Autumn,

Imagine you say “Er ist mein Freund,” to a native German speaker.

He replies to you, “He’s your boyfriend? I wasn’t aware you dated men. How long have you been together?”

You reply, “No, in German ‘Freund’ means male friend.”

A look of realization dawns on his face. “Ah! A common confusion. ‘Mein Freund’ is how we say my boyfriend. If you want to say your friend, you should say “ein Freund.”

Now at this point, accepting that he is a native speaker and knows more about the spoken language than you, do you say, “Ah, thanks for the clarification,” or do you say, “No, in German ‘Freund’ means male friend,” which while technically correct, is also something he obviously already knows and considered when he gave you his clarification? I can tell you which of those two you are doing to Strega right now.

Soooo…The Red Baron was hitting on World War I Flying Ace Snoopy? Before Gays in the military?? And on a children’s record too???

Damn! That is freaky-deaky! 😁

I am fine with consenting adults of every sex, sexual orientation, and gender enjoying Individual Rights and Equal Justice Before The Law…but dragging in cartoon animals and kids is right out! Damn The Royal Guardsmen! 😁😉

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Simon

They’re discriminated against on the basis of sexuality and gender preference.  Those are similar enough to lump them in together.  Also, as @autumn says, they overlap quite heavily.

Your logic only works because you inserted the “and,” but lots of groups are or feel discriminated against. You could reasonably keep on adding on all the other oppressed groups I listed above, but it’s not relevant to whether we’re talking about if the trans phenomenon is based on a mistake in physiology (did the genome literally dish out the wrong genitalia) or something going on in deep psychology or some sort of psychological fad.

You seem to be so blinded by your determination to reject the fact that there’s an important distinction that you can’t see how illogical you’re being. And so you shoehorn T in with LG through linguistic shenanigans. The difference is real and significant. I feel oppressed as elderly. Maybe we should expand the designation to LGBTQE(?).

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Unseen.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

there’s an important distinction

Sexuality-non-conformance – gender-non-conformance.  They’re very similar.

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