Sunday School

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Autumn wrote:

’cause if we’re talking any other facet of fairness in women’s sports then the only people who give a shit are female athletes and a subset of feminists, I suppose.

Most people care about fairness and justice, for themselves and others, which is why there are non-trans trans activists.  But I think this situation represents a genuine dilemma, since fairness to one side means potential unfairness to another.  It’s wrong to dismiss the concerns of any particular sector, just to provide a quick answer.  In this case, I think there isn’t one.

[AutumnParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Autumn wrote:

’cause if we’re talking any other facet of fairness in women’s sports then the only people who give a shit are female athletes and a subset of feminists, I suppose.

But I think this situation represents a genuine dilemma, since fairness to one side means potential unfairness to another.

There is no fairness to be had here. Remove trans people from the equation and that remains true. Sports aren’t fair. But that’s not the point. The point is sports being used as a wedge issue leading nuanced discussion to become a blunt political instrument thus creating noise rather than dialogue.

[AutumnParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

To find that highly ponderable isn’t hate or an attack on human rights.

I think you have a point. Some people apparently say it is.

Except that’s not what people are saying. The concern is a transphobic trope of a ‘contagion’ effect which uses the increase in openly trans people and youth seeking gender-affirming care to imply or explicitly state kids are being swept up in a fad. Yet there isn’t actual evidence to support this position. People are sensitive to the increase in trans and gnc youth being used as a dog whistle.

But lots of people have a genuine curiosity regarding the shift, either intellectual curiosity or concern for the implications for care models. When we look at the Tavistock affair, the clinic became overburdened with an influx of patients which is obviously not good for trans care because it either means less time and attention for individual patients, or longer delays and backlogs for those seeking care. Neither is good. So understanding why there is an increase in patients really does matter because it could inform better standards of care.

[AutumnParticipant]

Strega wrote:

Hi Autumn :). I’m learning. I really appreciate your ability to capture these issues in writing so clearly. Please don’t forget what you told me once, many years ago. For all the visible readers and posters, there’s a multiplication of people we reach who read without commenting. xxx

I appreciate the reminder, sincerely.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

I know someone who’s just come out as trans.  It’s a genuine thing.  He is much happier now identifying as male than being a she.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

I know someone who’s just come out as trans. It’s a genuine thing. He is much happier now identifying as male than being a she.

I’m happy for him. Really. I hope anyone who goes through “the change” is happier for it, just like someone who feels they need a facial tattoo or to wear the other gender’s clothing.

I simply find it hard to believe that this belief that one’s genitalia are lying to you is not based in psychology rather than genetics.

If Nature is dishing out the wrong genitalia, I’d like to know how that could possibly happen and isn’t it really more likely something going on in the subject’s mind?

There has been a surge in teens in particular supposedly discovering that they got the wrong genitals.

There have been psychological fads, promoted by well-intentioned “advocates” in the past, that the counseling field would like to forget. Most notably the “recovered/false memory syndrome”* period of temporary social insanity. Many parents, it turns out, were wrongly accused of being sexual abusers due to those years of hysteria.

There have been other fads you can find by googling on “fads in psychology.” So called “codependency,” which was talked about incessantly in pop psychology and promoted by many a recovery counselor has turned out to be a fad. One hears about it a lot less now and so family members of alcoholics can relieve themselves of the guilt associated with being an “enabler.”

These fads can do serious damage to people, families, and societies.

* Recovered memory syndrome, also known as false memory syndrome, pseudomemory, and memory distortion, is a mental health disorder prevalent among adults. It is defined by the recollection of memories that seem real in the mind of the person but actually, are the fabrication of the mind, in part or in whole. These memories are often quite vivid and emotionally charged, especially those representing acts of abuse or violence committed against the subject during childhood. It is believed that sufferers of false memory syndrome are typically female and are usually participating in some type of psychotherapy. They report sexual abuse in childhood that is claimed to have been forgotten and subsequently recovered only in adult life, having been repressed from 8 to 40 years. It is considered that these’memories’ have been implanted during therapy by a process of suggestion similar to that thought to occur in multiple personality disorder. (from a Google “Summarizer”)

• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

I simply find it hard to believe that this belief that one’s genitalia are lying to you is not based in psychology rather than genetics.

If Nature is dishing out the wrong genitalia, I’d like to know how that could possibly happen and isn’t it really more likely something going on in the subject’s mind?

I believe it’s like being gay.  People are born that way.  Do you believe that being gay is all psychological, and therefore (presumably) false?

In other words, I believe being straight, gay, trans, etc., is genetically hardwired into someone and this genetic hardwiring determines that aspect of their personality.

Also, the existence of bullshit in the world does not deny the existence of truth.

[StregaModerator]

Hi Unseen, I think I believed that when I first considered trans people. I thought it was partly psychological.

I discovered some amazing information from biologists and genetics people over on another kind of forum. So I’m going to head back there and see if I can find just one good explanation – there’s a biologist called Claire Jordan who I’m hoping to find you some stuff on.
I know that given new information, you can change your views. I’ve seen you do it. It’s commendable. Let me go see what I can find – I wanted to post this here so it would relate better to your post.

[UnseenParticipant]

BTW, don’t misread me as saying all gender reassignments are due to misdiagnosis. If I were to say, for example, “There has been a suspicious surge in caesarean sections in the last 20 years,” that isn’t a blanket condemnation of the procedure but is rather a statement that such a surge should have an explanation.

[StregaModerator]

Couldn’t find Claire’s but this one’s Franklins response to

“Why is it when discussing gender and sexes that biologically there are only a possibility of x and y gametes determining either sex male and female, but gender is being considered not biological?”

 

 

The idea that there is biologically only the possibility of X and Y making male or female is something people with a grade school education are told because it’s simple and usually true, but anyone with a college education in biology will tell you that biology is never that simple.

There is a bundle of genes on the Y chromosome collectively called SRY that make someone develop as male. But here’s the thing:

Genes don’t stay fixed on chromosomes. They can and do jump around. It’s posdible for SRY to jump to an X chromosome, making a person with XX chromosomes who has a penis, grows facial hair, and can father children.

SRY can jump off the Y chromosome, producing someone who is XY but develops as female, has a uterus and breasts and ovaries, and can become pregnant and have babies.

Wait! It gets better! Not everyone is XX or XY. Some people are born X. Some are born XXY. Some are born XYY. Some are born XXX.

Some are born XY with normal SRY but still develop physically as female.

And this just determines physical development, not mental development. Brain development is a whole ‘nother thing.

tl;dr: Biology is more complicated than what they told you when you were ten years old.“

This for the biology aspect. Still looking for Claire’s  🙂

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

I believe it’s like being gay.  People are born that way.  Do you believe that being gay is all psychological, and therefore (presumably) false?

I don’t doubt that people are born gay but do you know why this happens? Anyway, there’s no problem regarding gays that needs an explanation.

As for trans people, I’m sure some people are born thinking they got the wrong genitalia. That’s different.

What stands in need of explanation isn’t that some people can only be happy if they undergo “the change.” The thing that seems suspicious and needs an explanation is that there’s suddenly a surge of especially young people who are convinced nature dished out the wrong genitalia.

That smells a lot like a fad and fads are not unknown among young people.

BTW, are you aware there’s a strong movement to take the “T” out of LGBT? Why? Because LG and B are about sexual orientation, T is not. And the association with T makes life harder for LG and B because the public at large simply doesn’t split hairs or try to understand how different the T’s are from the LGB’s.

Probably more LGB’s would speak out but fear doing so will result in the dreaded j’accuse: “You’re transphobic!”

• This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Unseen.

[StregaModerator]

Strong movement?  Is that like big strong men coming up to you crying because they feel their LGB status has been etymologically distorted by the T outlier?

Oh come on.

[AutumnParticipant]

Strega wrote:

Strong movement? Is that like big strong men coming up to you crying because they feel their LGB status has been etymologically distorted by the T outlier? Oh come on.

That and the old “they’re trying to convert our children” chestnut pedalling the notion that doctors are trying to convert gay people to straight through medical transition.

It’s weird how often groups like LGB Alliance recycle homophobic rhetoric repackaged with trans people as the target.

[UnseenParticipant]

Strega wrote:

Strong movement? Is that like big strong men coming up to you crying because they feel their LGB status has been etymologically distorted by the T outlier? Oh come on.

An insinuendo of transphobia does not a valid argument make.

If nature gives people the wrong genitalia (or if they so believe), clearly something is wrong either in the genes or in the mind. We should figure out which and respond accordingly.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Unseen wrote:

If nature gives people the wrong genitalia (or if they so believe), clearly something is wrong either in the genes or in the mind.

I think it goes deeper than belief.  Belief is just the surface manifestation.  At the moment, if something is “wrong”, it’s fixed by people psychologically identifying with/biologically changing to the opposite gender.  Should it be fixed by changing their psychological orientation?  I don’t think that’s possible.  Pray the gay away?

[Author]

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