_Robert_

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  • #30322

    _Robert_
    Participant

    At least i cant see how a clockwork universe depends on our appreciation of its intricacies. it either is or is not deterministic.

    If the clockwork is driven in part by truly random sources, it is not a very good clock at all. The capabilities of an entity reading the clock are irrelevant. I can record the past performance of the clock and characterize it with probabilities, but I can not determine any state in the future for certain. It is causal looking backwards, yes but is certainly not a deterministic system in that restarting the clock (or universe) at t=0, it will all play out the same exact way. This is what determinism implies.  If true randomness exists (and that is under serious contention) a living system could harness random variables into their processes to further defy determinism. So yeah we may experience casual/bounded determinism daily, but there could be much more to it.

    #30313

    _Robert_
    Participant

    the notion that we are so important in a universe that is so unimaginably vast and complex,

    A universe that is so unimaginably vast and complex makes us unimaginably unimportant. You are in the god camp of assuming omniscient possibility. If determinism is true, the state of the universe must be knowable at all times, unbounded. Try doing that with a wave function and particle duality. Seems to me that we can’t even know if a cat is dead. How small of a time are we talking about anyways? Real time is not discrete. Any discrete capture of the state of the universe at time = x will have all the problems associated with sampling theory.

    I see ‘choice’ as a gradient. Do monkeys and parrots make choices? I think so. Do rats and roaches? As if life evolved across some choice threshold. Anyway I agree it is not the best word for this. The idea is that I can’t rule out that there may be some ‘degree of freedom’ to the way lifeforms act (I have certainly had some love interests who seemed to act in an un deterministic manner, LOL)

    This is a change in my thinking from a few years ago. Now I am questioning if the universe is knowable and if true randomness is impossible. Is what happens in a black hole knowable? “Event” horizon? LOL. Seems to me that science must tightly control experiments to eliminate all sources of random effects when trying to just discover basic laws.

     

    #30307

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Unconscious choices? That is a contradiction.

    Unconscious beings make choices all the time. A paramecium moves towards light. Another does not. If you want to define choice as being limited to the ill defined state of being that is called “consciousness” that is OK. I like a broader usage whereby a bundle of nerves may act one way or another and be plotted on a frequency chart.

    #30306

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Whether we are cognizant of how things will unfold has no bearing (in most instances) on how they will unfold.

    Then pick a word other than “determinism”. If no entity can be cognizant of how things will unfold (e.g. it is impossible)  than the universe is non deterministic.

    • This reply was modified 1 day, 3 hours ago by  _Robert_.
    #30304

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Davis, i can’t see how complexity obviates determinism

    Is the state of the universe (that might be infinately complex) even knowable, e.g. is an omniscient entity possible. If not, there goes determinism.

    Also, the notion of choice makes sense only in the context of consciousness.

    So we use the word “selection” for unconscious choices as in natural selection. The process could buck determinism by harnessing random code replication issues. Perhaps someday the definition of life will include an exemption from determinism.

    #30300

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Just how free are our choices if we they are always constrained by predetermined factors and by our minds that make “decisions” before we become aware of them?

    I would extend free will to include the unconscious. The free will endowed upon us by millions of years of evolution. The collective free will of a species. A worker ant may not have what we consider free will, but it still carries out the will of the colony, unlike a pile of pebbles.

    #30299

    _Robert_
    Participant

    The laws of physics can have an aberration, pause, change, go out the window…

    Perhaps…but I am not so sure. A miscomprehension by primates is a given however assuming dynamic physical laws is a problem for science, is it not?

    #30294

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I have slowly changed camps. Just because there is a chain of physical events that leads to every event, that does not mean it was the only chain that could lead to that event. Nor does that mean that an event might not have happened based on some probability assignment. Some events are highly probable but not certain, such as the bowling ball hitting the floor. There are an infinite number of happenings that could cause the ball to not hit the floor, They are all unlikely. This implies that environment matters and works on probabilities. I think you can choose not to smoke. If you do elect to smoke you shift the probability curve towards you getting cancer. It is still not a forgone conclusion, however you could find a long chain of events leading to your cancer,,, giving the impression that it was deterministic.

    #30226

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Obviously this is the harlot edifice to Isthar at the port gate beckoning all into the Babylon land of red light districts, opium dens and atheists

    #30189

    _Robert_
    Participant

    EXODUS 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    God has an ass, Adam had a peek. Why wouldn’t he have a brain? If you see his face he must kill you. It is just all so stooopid.

    #30161

    _Robert_
    Participant

    A forum quotation system seems to elude the prophet. Nothing to learn here.

    #30129

    _Robert_
    Participant

    If we bound a time period and have an accurate model of a system we can accurately predict the effects based on inputs (causes). However since we don’t know much about t=0 we end up with randomness (to us) and model complexities that can approach infinity in degrees of freedom and thus we have to resort to probabilities (based on data) to predict effects. With this combination of simpler bounded systems and knowledge of probabilities we can launch a rocket to the moon or derive a vaccine for the coronavirus. Maybe. Sometimes. Etc.

    The beliefs of a metaphysicist are immaterial.

    #30123

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Is this a case of philosophy delving into physics?

    #30057

    _Robert_
    Participant

    he offered his only son as an atonement for sin

    Ah yes…. the idiotic morality of the bronze age that one’s responsibility can be transferred because of faith in a blood sacrifice. Try that in today’s secular justice system.

    But sacrifice even as foreshadowed by offering animals at the alter…

    No foreshadowing here, humans were routinely sacrificed since prehistoric times.. you know the prescientific, unenlightened world that you think had it all right. As for the persecution of Christians…the persecution of Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, and Asians by high and mighty Christians has no equal. From modern death camps to impalements to heads on stakes and the spread of AIDs in Africa we see the result of the “teachings” of Jesus.

    #30031

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Doubt and reason-over-faith are always the worst offense to the scriptors of religion; even though doubt and reason serve us well in every other capacity.

    Confide in Jehovah with all thy heart, and lean not unto thine own intelligence

    What a crock of shite.

     

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