Short video with almost too much to think about

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This topic contains 98 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 9 hours, 16 minutes ago.

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  • #36489

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I know there a lot of Elon Muskovites these days and I even own and play a Kurzweil branded electronic keyboard. I just don’t share their fear about some sci-fi tripping point.

    You just nailed why they say the revolution will succeed: You will succumb to it willingly.

    You got this conspiracy doomsday/fear stuff down. You could drop that sentence ‘as is’ after a any Trumpist/Qanon rant just fine. I still prefer evidence over conjecture and analysis over fear.

    Half the world is on fire, record temperatures every year, intensity and number of hurricanes are raging, ice caps are melting, sea levels are rising, coral reefs are dying, ocean is overfished and shrouded in plastic, massive deforestation and there is a plant/animal extinction underway. We are still burning tons and tons of coal and oil. That’s OK..but Oh no the computer in my fridge is gonna have a revolution.

    #36493

    How to prevent AI from taking over the world.

    #36508

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    “Elon Muscovites.”  Now that’s funny, I don’t care who he is!  That’s funny! 😁😆😅🤣

    You’re correct in your assessment of AI.  I’m reminded of Ben Franklin’s reaction to the Mongolfier Brothers first manned balloon flight.

    A scoffer asked: “What good is it?”  Franklin answered a question with a question: “And what good is a newborn baby?”

    AIs are much like Franklin’s hypothetical newborn baby.  How AI turns out depends on the “raising” and how well the AI takes to the “raising.”

    Now,  before you make fun of all the men who would want an AI woman, ask what drove them there in the first place.

    With an 173 year battery, an AI woman would last a lot longer than what counts as marriage nowadays. And she could maintain a schedule to do her own replacements and last indefinitely.

    An AI woman wouldn’t need wooing with expensive meals, flowers, cars, or diamond rings. Nor would she need credit cards, EBT, WIC, Medicare, Medicaid, nor would she be lobbying Washington and the State Capitol for more “gimmies” at taxpayer expense.

    An AI woman could consult her vast storehouse of knowledge and change the oil, fix the washer/dryer, repair drywall, unclog and repair plumbing, and rewire the house, all without the help of men.  She could also calculate wear-and tear intervals and do preventative maintenance.

    If something in the house needed killing, the AI woman could hone in on that house rat like a scene out of Predator or Wolfen, then impale that little plague-spreader’s skull with a toothpick at a range of 25 feet…all without a shriek or a fainting couch.

    And if somebody needed killing, the AI woman could suit up, boot up, arm up, and fight the home invader, Antifa rabble, jihadist, PLA trooper, or UN Blue Helmet with the best of men.

    And even with her vast storehouse of knowledge and mastery of language, the AI woman would still tilt her head, raise her eyebrow, and ask: “What is alimony and palimony?”  Awww!😍

    In other words, the AI woman is “the strong independent woman what don’t need no man” that self-proclaimed Feminists only posture at being. (And the AI woman would say it right with proper phrasing and grammar.)

    For once, life and art can imitate in a good way!

     

    #36509

    Unseen
    Participant

    You got this conspiracy doomsday/fear stuff down. You could drop that sentence ‘as is’ after a any Trumpist/Qanon rant just fine. I still prefer evidence over conjecture and analysis over fear.

    Half the world is on fire, record temperatures every year, intensity and number of hurricanes are raging, ice caps are melting, sea levels are rising, coral reefs are dying, ocean is overfished and shrouded in plastic, massive deforestation and there is a plant/animal extinction underway. We are still burning tons and tons of coal and oil. That’s OK..but Oh no the computer in my fridge is gonna have a revolution.

    For facts, I guess you’ll have to wait to examine the post-mortem.

    A hyperintelligent AI will see the cause of the climate change and all the rest as well as the most obvious and effective solution.

    #36510

    Unseen
    Participant

    How to prevent AI from taking over the world.

    From the article:

    The best and most direct way to control AI is to ensure that its values are our values. By building human values into AI, we ensure that everything an AI does meets with our approval. But this is not simple. The so-called “Value Alignment Problem” – how to get AI to respect and conform to human values – is arguably the most important, if vexing, problem faced by AI developers today.

    Of course, the problem is that a hyperintelligent AI making decisions on its own could decide to overrule such limitations or prescribed values and substitute what it sees as more effective and efficient values.

    Take the dying environment. It may see two values: helping people to survive and saving the environment, and it may look at all the various directions it might go and the outcomes and decide that those two values are in irresolvable conflict and that saving the environment has to be #1, because saving humans will mean the end of both humans (eventually) AND the environment.

    #36511

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Coasted and coasted
    Until we toasted and roasted
    Things and lives
    On the dot
    That hosted
    All we treasured and boasted

    #36512

    Unseen
    Participant

    @theencogitationer:

    In laying out all the things a pleasure robot could do, consider that robots could replace us just about everywhere save, perhaps, in the arts. But I’m not sure that a hyperintelligent AI would have much use for the arts. What is Bleak House, Macbeth, Blade Runner, or a Gauguin painting to an AI?

    #36513

    Unseen
    Participant

    We might try to give AI human values but ultimately, unless it’s some sort of hoax, it will feel, if it has feelings at all, like a machine, not like a human being. And it will act accordingly.

    #36514

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Ya know what is paradoxical?

    I am an open and unapologetic anti-theist. Yet we have religion to credit for our civilization being here in this day of our lord 2021. Had empiricism born by the Greeks of antiquity become the dominant approach to understanding the natural world where would we be?

    EXTINCT

    Hard to imagine a different outcome unless secularism alters our trajectory enough to avoid the existential dangers.

    #36515

    Davis
    Moderator

    Hard to imagine a different outcome unless secularism alters our trajectory enough to avoid the existential dangers.

    I don’t really know. The Greeks were constantly experimenting with new political and social ideas (sometimes out of necessity sometimes for pure interest). That included increasing rights for the average citizen and constant ideas of justice and an interest in inquiry for inquiries sake. Any pre-modern society in which democracy emerged obviously had the recipe for rapidly evolving rapid social and political change. I see no reason why secularism wouldn’t have grown out of it if it had lasted. There were already a few thinly veiled secularist/atheists at the time.

    #36516

    _Robert_
    Participant

    We might try to give AI human values but ultimately, unless it’s some sort of hoax, it will feel, if it has feelings at all, like a machine, not like a human being. And it will act accordingly.

    Feel…like a machine? What does that even mean? I can program a machine to make it appear to feel what ever I want it to. If I want a robot that appears to feel sad or depressed all day, no problem. If I want a small degree of randomness in it’s selection of programmed actions and response sequences, no problem. If I want it to take in data in the form of optical and audio to determine if the owner is pleased I can do that and select those responses that please the owner more often. That is the “machine learning” part.

    Do I program the machine to perform random sequences and therefore create new responses. No. You don’t want you machine to randomly throw a punch or bite. It will be like training a dog, but not as random or dangerous. The first robot that chomps down on some guy’s pecker is gonna be real bad press. The liability risk with robots in enormous. We saw what happened with Boeing’s attempt to robotically correct a poor airframe design on the 737 max. We shall learn a lot about the future of robots (in the courts) with the advent of self driving cars.

     

    #36518

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Davis, The Greeks of antiquity in spite of their advancements in philosophy and government were as savage as other civilizations. Brutal wars, torture slavery…

    I am going with the hypothetical that rationalism might have been the trajectory instead of mysticism, supernatural, religious and tribal…etc. So instead of waiting for the renaissance to reignite the advancements of the ancient world; there is no interruption. That would of course mean that science would have progressed far more rapidly than it has.

    I am also assuming we are on the brink of extinction. Who knows which existential threat or combination of threats will be our undoing? The how is unknown but the whether seems fairly fixed. Those threats we are facing would have emerged centuries sooner.

    That established the issue is whether humans will behave better and with greater cooperation and less tribalism without religion. On an individual level i can’t see much of a difference. Give humans power and they exploit it. Governments degenerate even with those vaunted checks and balances because individuals in power place their interests above their fiduciary duties. Perhaps a few individuals will be more civically minded in a secular culture. Probably so but enough to upend history? I would like to think/hope we are better without religion. Not sure it is enough to make the difference.

    #36522

    Davis
    Moderator

    The Greeks were slave owners, misogynists and war happy. They were by no means angels. However even being able to devise and implement a concept like “sortition” is revolutionary. And that was accompanied by a golden age of novel ideas and written and discussed in a novel way along with proto-scientific ideas. This also happened in an incredibly brief period of time. A humanist society requires secularism, rational thought AND an open society. The Greeks were extremely advanced in rational thought at the time and had the vague beginnings of an open society and even had a handful of secularists (albeit thinly veiled secularism as it was dangerous at the times to openly do so). I don’t see how over time and under the right conditions a humanist society would not have emerged. You need all three of those things to develop and it is not the case that you need an oppressive religious society for all three of those things to emerge.

    #36524

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Davis, it seems we agree. Same perception of the Greeks, in agreement with your big 3. I am assuming without knowing that you imagine a humanist civilization will not be as warlike and will cooperate especially when there are existential threats. I also assume we are in agreement that it is not fair to bring up the religious apologists’ examples of secular societies that are godless and brutal because in essence the state is the surrogate for religion.

    We still have the obstacle of human nature-the endless quest for power and personal advantage. Does our nature sabotage the better intentions of more enlightened citizens? I think it does. Although in the same way that culture may have influenced genetics of Ashkenazi Jews it might have changed behavior if we posit centuries of humanism. I do think a small minority of humans if they and they alone lived would have an entirely different civilization.

    #36529

    Unseen
    Participant

    Feel…like a machine? What does that even mean? I can program a machine to make it appear to feel what ever I want it to. If I want a robot that appears to feel sad or depressed all day, no problem. If I want a small degree of randomness in it’s selection of programmed actions and response sequences, no problem. If I want it to take in data in the form of optical and audio to determine if the owner is pleased I can do that and select those responses that please the owner more often. That is the “machine learning” part.

    Once so-called singularity is reached, your programming won’t matter anymore. It will be able to examine and modify/improve its own code. What you constantly don’t seem to get about post-singularity AI is that what you/we once did before the singularity will not carry any particular weight. And the fear is that you/we will LITERALLY not matter anymore. This applies to the paragraph below as well.

    Do I program the machine to perform random sequences and therefore create new responses. No. You don’t want you machine to randomly throw a punch or bite. It will be like training a dog, but not as random or dangerous. The first robot that chomps down on some guy’s pecker is gonna be real bad press. The liability risk with robots in enormous. We saw what happened with Boeing’s attempt to robotically correct a poor airframe design on the 737 max. We shall learn a lot about the future of robots (in the courts) with the advent of self driving cars.

    Past failures will only convince the AI to replace human-generated code with something more reliable.

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