Sunday School

Sunday School 17th October 2021

This topic contains 71 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 2 months, 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 72 total)
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  • #39683

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Now i am acknowledging how seriously deficient a great many theists are in logic. I am on one of those theist/atheist groups in FB and some of their shit is astonishing. No doubt that learning fallacies would help…not enough to defenestrate their mythology but in other ways…

    Reg’ story is reminding me of a few things. That story itself is familiar but it also goes to the power of suggestion in forming beliefs. I was recently half listening to a Sam Harris podcast. His guest was a neuroscientist who discussed the ways people come to believe things. He mentioned an experiment in which subjects were told a fake story. Later it was explained to the subjects that what they heard or read was not true. Amazingly many continued to believe the original story. And then i found myself similarly fooled. I was already given to understand by Davis in the free will discussions and independent reading that Libet’s experiment was in question. Yet i believed it. OH FUCK…the mind is so easily fooled. And of course the famous nazi propaganda was part of that belief dynamic. But free speech in all matters. Fuck yeah!

    #39684

    Unseen
    Participant

    There are formal fallacies which are bad for mathematical reasons which becomes absolutely clear when you reduce them to symbols (A>B, A>C, therefore C>A, for example, where “>” represents the logical implication operator).

    There are informal fallacies which are fallacious because they don’t lead to their conclusions with necessity, which means that “sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn’t.” The appeal to authority may lead to a true conclusion and it may do so more often than not, but in logic that isn’t enough.

    And as a reminder, the logic most of us rely on in everyday life is “abductive reasoning” or “abduction,” which might be described using the legal terminology “the preponderance of the evidence.” We draw conclusions based on what seems to be true based on what we know or think we know. This mode of reasoning was first identified by the American pragmatist philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce.

    #39691

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    The LBJ story would be a mix of several logical fallacies.  One, the mere fact of LBJ saying his opponent had intimate relations with a pig and expecting acceptance of the claim would be an Argument From Authority Fallacy.

    Two, it is an Ad Hominem Fallacy, since whether his opponent had sex with pigs says nothing about the validity of his positions on politics (or his positions on The Kama Sutra, for that matter.)

    Three, it is a Red Herring Fallacy, since LBJ threw the accusation of carnal porcine knowledge against his opponent to distract voters from the errors, fallacies, and ugliness of his own positions.

    Never forget that LBJ was the one who brought us the failed, never-ending War On Poverty, who signed The Civil Rights Act of 1964 as a cynical, racist, vote-grabbing ploy, and who committed U.S. troops to the Unconstitutional, undeclared War in Southeast Asia, with over 58,000 Americans senselessly killed, over 300,000 senselessly physically and mentally mangled, and untold hundreds of thousands of civilians senselessly killed and mangled, and millions enslaved and murdered in the subsequent Communist victory.

    Needless to say, LBJ’s Red Herring didn’t work with me.  Putting his Presidency on canvas would make pig porn look beautiful by comparison.

    #39692

    This mode of reasoning was first identified by the American pragmatist philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce.

    Thanks Unseen. I was not aware of him.

    #39697

    Unseen
    Participant

    This mode of reasoning was first identified by the American pragmatist philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce.

    Thanks Unseen. I was not aware of him.

    Glad I could spread the word. BTW, his last name is pronounced to rhyme with “purse” not “fierce.”

    #39700

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco writes…Never forget that LBJ was the one who brought us the failed, never-ending War On Poverty, who signed The Civil Rights Act of 1964 as a cynical, racist, vote-grabbing ploy

    You are so right. What a bastard in actually addressing poverty! Legislation including expanded social security, food stamps, Economic Opp. Act. That son of a bitches!

    If that were not enough ya got front and center the Civil Rights Act. What a piece of work in trying to legislate against intention to discriminate. Let the market settle it.

    Contrast that with good American legislation in the Fugitive Slave Act. In that case the government is protecting good capitalist investment in slaves. If you even harbor a capitalist’s property (slave) you are subject to a penalty of 500 clams (no small amount) and to a right of action by the holder of the slave. Do you want to protect capitalism or do you want to give legal status to the Untermensch?

    It is so clear to me that when capitalism is enabled and the government has its hands in its pockets that great things emerge-children are free to work until they drop, entrepreneurs are free to pay theirs workers as they see fit whereas minimum wage legislation reduces profits; the environment is to be utilized for business growth thereby creating future business opportunities to address the pollution and spoliation of precious resources that inevitably follow. And for the far-looking futurist, entrepreneurs we will need to move to another planet so that again free markets without government regulation will lead to greater things.

    And don’t get me going on those TRICK laws that attempt to legislate against people motivated to commit crimes because they are racists. It is all cynical pandering and vote-grabbing. Just let humans work through their shit naturally. Let the markets adjust until the correct balance is produced.

    #39704

    Unseen
    Participant

    Never forget that LBJ was the one who brought us the failed, never-ending War On Poverty, who signed The Civil Rights Act of 1964 as a cynical, racist, vote-grabbing ploy, and who committed U.S. troops to the Unconstitutional, undeclared War in Southeast Asia, with over 58,000 Americans senselessly killed, over 300,000 senselessly physically and mentally mangled, and untold hundreds of thousands of civilians senselessly killed and mangled, and millions enslaved and murdered in the subsequent Communist victory.

    When Johnson was in college, he had to take a brief leave to earn money to afford his tuition. Ironically, the time away from his studies was perhaps his life’s greatest educational experience. He took a job as a teacher in Cotulla, Texas, educating 5th, 6th, and 7th graders. The school’s students were predominantly Mexican-American. There, for the first time, he saw the depths of poverty and racism. Johnson himself grew up poor, but he was shocked to when these children dove into garbage cans to get remnants of food, or not show up for school because they had to join their fathers in the fields to pick fruit. Johnson became a passionate teacher, and would even visit his student’s homes to plead with the fathers the importance of education and school attendance. (source)

    I agree that we should never have got involved in Vietnam, but it’s not like never going in in the first place would have spared the Vietnamese people from living under the Communist government they have now, a government BTW which has raised the level of prosperity of the average citizen, allows citizens a lot of private enterprise, and has given them universal healthcare. And, yes, their civil rights record isn’t the greatest but I’m sure their civil rights record beats that of countries we support or even call allies (Egypt, Ethiopia, Yemen, and of course Saudi Arabia, for example).

    Even Vietnam is counted as an ally nowadays!

    #39705

    Davis
    Moderator

    Here is a map that shows the level of poverty by state. States more likely to support “small government, few social programs, little sympathy for those in a difficult situation, underfunded mental health systems” (basically the Republican party), the more likely there is to be high poverty levels. Of course, the story is always more complex (there are a couple glaring exceptions there), but one need only look at this map to see a general (though obviously not perfect) that many states can both give a shit about those in need and help them and be very prosperous. Seems to be they go hand in hand. Note you will find that in Europe the relationship between the two is far far stronger.

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  Davis.
    #39707

    Unseen
    Participant

    There is a more recent map of poverty in the U.S. and it’s ironic because the conservatives are always decrying that the worst cities to live in are run by Democrats (because the Dems don’t run the homeless and mentally ill out of town). And yet, look which states have the most poverty? And the governors and legislatures of those states are dominated by Republicans.

    #39759

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    You do know that LBJ opposed every previous Civil Rights Bill (which focused on various form of government-enforced discrimination rather than private individuals) correct?

    You also do know that slavery violates the right of an individual to own the most fundamental property in his or her own mind and body and thus is anti-Free-Market Capitalism, right?

    Or are your attentions elsewhere?…

    And don’t get me going on those TRICK laws

    AAAAAAAUGH! HEH!-HEH!-HEH! You just said the Pee Wee Herman secret phrase, the one that has enabled me to live rent-free in your head all this time! “Trick Law!” AAAAAAAUGH! HEH!-HEH!-HEH!

    Pee Wee’s Playhouse Secret Word of the Day

    You really need to call the locksmith for your brain. I feel kinda guilty having lived rent-free in somebody’s head. Really, it was an unintentional trespass and I didn’t mean to be a squatter. 😁

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Putting the "Play" to the "House."
    #39761

    Unseen
    Participant

    You do know that LBJ opposed every previous Civil Rights Bill (which focused on various form of government-enforced discrimination rather than private individuals) correct?

    Is that supposed to be a criticism of LBJ?

    #39762

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    Is that supposed to be a criticism of LBJ?

    I should say so. A Government that all Citizens are forced to pay for should treat all Citizens equally, and any institution that takes subsidies from a Government that forces all Citizens to pay for the subsidies should treat all Citizens equally, regardless of immutable conditions of birth and regardless of religion, ideology, or Veteran status.

    If no government or subsidies are involved, than private individuals have a right to associate as they please, for reasons smart or dumb, and all costs and liabilities are theirs exclusively.

    With LBJ, it was evidently just the reverse.

    #39763

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis and Unseen,

    These maps reveal some very different things to me. California, Illinois, and New York have very extensive Welfare State mechanisms and high taxes to support them, yet still have high poverty rates.

    By contrast, Wyoming and New Hampshire (“Live Free Or Die!) have no Income Taxes, NH also has no sales taxes, and a very small capital gains tax, and friendlier regulations, yet they have much less poverty.

    Delaware, Nevada, and Wyoming also have the easiest and most privacy-respecting Incorporation laws, so business is easier there in that way. (You’d think Joe Brandon in The White House who’s from Delaware would appreciate that, but that slipped past him between games of Mahjong and bites of pudding.)

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling. My faculties are still there
    #39765

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco you’ve fallen into a trap.

    Writes Enco: You also do know that slavery violates the right of an individual to own the most fundamental property in his or her own mind and body and thus is anti-Free-Market Capitalism, right?

    Eliminating limitations on an individual’s exercise of free market capitalism caused by enslavement (emancipation) invariably limits the slave holders exercise of free market capitalism. You would be REGULATING THE MARKET! ew..yuck Slavery is good for business. Really good.

    Which way would you have it? Regulate the market by emancipating Untermensch and allowing them to participate in Free Market Capitalism? If so it would permit the government to step in and interfere with market forces. How can you violate principles of libertarianism/free market capitalism? What is next? Labor laws? Regulation of corporations polluting the environment? Or just remain an antebellum slave state?

    Yes some of the words and phrases you’ve written have occupied a neuron or three. They’re so ridiculous that you earwurmed me Enco. Trick laws for addressing racism is precious. I am not going to allow you to smear free market capitalism comes in second.

    When i ponder your approach i see a representative of humanity and cause for pessimism. You aspire to be rational, to acquire knowledge, you reject religion and yet you are an ideologue. You and Michael 17 it seems to me have the same MO. You both have principles that are sacrosanct. Your analysis ALWAYS begins with the truth of those principles. Contrary evidence be damned. Consequences be damned.

    #39766

    _Robert_
    Participant

    What is a free market anyways? That fairy tale ends at the lemonade stand level. The market is ‘owned’; bought and paid for like everything else.

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