Sunday School

Sunday School 17th October 2021

This topic contains 71 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 2 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 72 total)
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  • #39767

    _Robert_
    Participant

    No Hitchens did not accept jesus on his deathbed, but Ayn Rand did put in for her medicare and social security when cancer struck her.

    #39768

    jakelafort
    Participant

    That is interesting about Rand. Enco is not cashing his gov. handout stimulus check in a meaningless gesture.

    Enco if your vet told you your beloved pet would die without a medical procedure that would cost ya a thousand bucks and the only way to pay was with the stimulus would you do it? Or would you let the pet die?

    #39769

    jakelafort
    Participant

    As a kid I got beat in the free market at my lemonade stand selling Kool Aid cuz my neighbor opened shop selling Zarex.

    So i got a cart on wheels and went door to door. It worked.

    #39771

    Unseen
    Participant

    What is a free market anyways? That fairy tale ends at the lemonade stand level. The market is ‘owned’; bought and paid for like everything else.

    Nowadays, “free market” is code for the rich getting richer by exploiting the less wealthy and powerful. Enco can’t seem top see where the freedom in today’s market is taking us. Do we want even more free marketism? I don’t.

    #39772

    Davis
    Moderator

    If everyone started with the same genetics, the same incentives, the same capital, the same education, an equal amount of barriers (or lack of barriers) and the market behaved in a truly rational way and the extreme role of luck was diminished in come way (and consumers weren’t so easily duped into doing things against their interest)…then yes…the free market would be something worth admiring.

    Until then it should be seen for what it is: the most dependable engine of development and growth. This is extremely valuable, but it is also extremely destructive if the toxic elements of the free market aren’t accounted for. Some jurisdictions, most notably the United States, have created some fantasy narrative that the only way forward is to encourage this engine, ignore the fall out and pretend that the real life consequences and suffering of that fall out are because of something else [immigrants, bad-life-decisions, laziness, lack-of-embracing-the-market, etc] and that what is actually required  like strategic regulation (anti-pollution laws and labour protections), strategic restrictions ( powerful anti-monopoly laws) and support for the fall out (social programs and re-employment campaigns) is evil communism.

    I swear these days it’s almost like you could convince someone that accepting a free lunch with no strings attached is against their interests.

    #39773

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Ouch on that last line by Davis.

    Enco, when you are not an ideologue you can reason your way into a nuanced position that encompasses and treats fairly contrary positions. If you are sucking at the teat and you never bite it even a little you are being religious. Sorry for that metaphor.

    How clearly schools need to change. Were i an influence in curricula i would advocate for all my worth for critical thinking. Not a class in final year but all of the way through it ought to be a major focus of school. Kids should begin to critique everything. Spotting fallacies is good but not enough.

    #39774

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    I wish I could claim “trick law” as my own. Recollecting back, I now remember the source: It was a short story by Sci-Fi writer Robert A. Heinlein in his collection of stories, essays, and anecdotes called
    Expanding Universe

    In the short story of a future Black President of the United States. The President said he wanted his people to succeed, but not by “trick laws” like Affirmative Action quotas and said that he equally opposed both Jim Crow and Crow Jim. Sadly, art did not imitate life in 2008.

    You know, to be so anti-Free Market Capitalism, you and the guys build some great Straw-Men. They’d sell great this time of year, especially infused with pumpkin spice.

    I’ve been weaned for most of my time on Earth, so I only suck on teats if I and a willing partner so desire. I can buy my own skim milk and keep a medicine bottle of powdered milk with my water bottle in case your “Antifa” pals riot nearby and the air fills fill with pepper spray.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Italics fot the title
    #39776

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    In the midst of all this excitement, I forgot there is yet another informal Logical Fallacy: Argumentum Ad Misericordiam (Appeal To Sympathy or Pity.)

    It has been expressed in various ways such as

    “Think Of The Children!”,

    “You Want People To Die!”,

    “Buy This Magazine Or We Club This Baby Seal!” (Actual headline for the humor magazine National Lampoon,)

    and

    “Why Do You Hate ___Fill In The Boank Person(s), Place(s), Thing(s), or Idea(s)___?”

    In all cases, even if the premise(s) is or are factually correct, the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premises.

    And if you are an Atheist, you really haven’t lived until you hear someone use this Fallacy in the form of this statement:

    “The reason you’re an Atheist is because you hate God!/love sin and perversion!/haven’t met the right God yet! I will pray for you!”

    A guy named Jack told me that one time in college and I told my roommate about it to get w laugh.

    I then said: “I can’t really hate a being that doesn’t exist. I may hate the character portrayed in The Holy Bible named God, but I don’t hate him in the same sense that I would hate…(pause)…that I would hate…”

    “Jwck?” my roommate suggested.

    “Bingo!” I answered. 😁

    #39777

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I gotya Enco. You will skirt, avoid and evade anything substantive.

    My guess is nothing on this site made any inroads against your ideology.

    Oh well. Say la gear.

    #39781

    Davis
    Moderator

    LOL Jake, he doesn’t even realise that we are NOT anti-capitalists but are simply not ignorant of the dangerous elements of capitalism and have a sliver of empathy for the victims of it. To think that any economic or political system doesn’t have issues that are harmful to some and to not want to deal with the human harm is to treat that system/ideology like the devout treat a religion and to show, at the very least, a weak form of sociopathy.

    So yeah, Enco, to not recognise the human fall out of a system/ideology is to be religious towards it. You are literally no different than religious zealots…only you seem to rail against religious zealots…so there is some hilarious hypocrisy/irony there.

    Your general lack of giving a shit about people suffering, often from no fault of their own? I don’t know if that is real or a front. It’s hard to tell if it is a sociopathic trait or just the narrative of an ideologue.

    Funniest of all…is you calling out Christians for assuming atheists “hate God” when they critique it…and yet are annoyed that we seemingly “hate capitalism” when we simply critique a few (and only a few) elements of it. Do you not know what an intellectual mirror is? You point the criticisms that you aim at others…at yourself once in a while to see if your own ideas stand up to scrutiny. Show some bravery and try it on yourself.

    #39784

    jakelafort
    Participant

    True Davis.

    I am in agreement with your most recent analysis of free market capitalism.

    Ya know the hypothetical i gave Enco about Slavery is taken from history. Even after it was illegal, way way after Emancipation, major US corporations like Standard Oil paid criminal fines levied against innocent Blacks thereby effectively purchasing slaves and working many to death in horrible conditions.

    It is simply axiomatic based on human history and human nature that ANY concentration of power (in religion, government and business) poses a major risk of great harm. And when ya look at the trajectory of gigantic corporations the notion of looking the other way and giving free reign is crazy. But if you are as Enco an ideologue who has swallowed the propaganda then ya can’t see it. And yes i see you agree with my likening his approach to a religious approach.

    #39785

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    A free-market in health care would not delay the construction of a hospital for 15+ years, including for the past now nearly 24 months of the COVID-19 Pandemic/Endemic.

    Yet that is what “Certificate Of Need” laws did to a hospital in Fort Mill South Carolina and does to medical facilities in 35 States where “Certificate Of Nèed” laws exist.

    Construction begins on long-planned Fort Mill Medical Center
    https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2021/05/27/fort-mill-medical-center-construction-begins.html

    After 15 years, Piedmont Medical gets go-ahead over Atrium to build Fort Mill hospital
    https://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2019/02/21/after-15-years-piedmont-medical-gets-go-ahead-over.html

    Lottle-Known State Laws Are Hurting Patients and Makijg Hospitals Worse
    https://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/10/03/Little-Known-State-Laws-Are-Hurting-Patients-and-Making-Hospitals-Worse

    #39786

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    I meant to address this earlier:

    I agree that we should never have got involved in Vietnam, but it’s not like never going in in the first place would have spared the Vietnamese people from living under the Communist government they have now, a government BTW which has raised the level of prosperity of the average citizen, allows citizens a lot of private enterprise, and has given them universal healthcare. And, yes, their civil rights record isn’t the greatest but I’m sure their civil rights record beats that of countries we support or even call allies (Egypt, Ethiopia, Yemen, and of course Saudi Arabia, for example).

    Even Vietnam is counted as an ally nowadays

    I pointed out the Communist victory in Southeast Asia to further underscore the absurdity and senselessness of the U.S. War there. It was absurd to spend blood and treasure there while allowing a Communist nation within 90 miles of our shores in Cuba. Also it was absurd to spend blood and treasure in Southeast Asia while continuously extending money and credit to the Soviet Union from the time of the New Economic Plan throughout The Cold War to the final collapse.

    As for the touted bennies of Vietnam today, none of that makes up for the millions mudered and enslaved under the Communist regime, the “boat people” sure aren’t going back for them, nor are such bennies worth one American life.

    #39787

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Jake,

    One, I never seen any hypothetical about Standard Oil and slave labor on this thread or any other. Provide a link or it never happened.

    Two, since I did put “Standard Oil” and “Slavery” into DuckDuckGo and learned something new, fuck Henry Flagler and anyone else who initiates force against the peaceful to get what they want.

    Three, utilizing slave labor is still not Free-Market Capitalism but a violation and a betrayal of it. Captains of industry who want labor have to get what they want by peaceful persuasion and pay just like anybody else.

    Again, link or it never happened.

    #39788

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    So I’m picking up where Ayn Rand failed and left off. I don’t smoke and don’t eat the Soylent Green Gummint Cheese.

    I will also contribute my Batchelor’s mite and work towards Ray Kurzweil’s Singularit…because where that’s going, we won’t need Social Security and Medicare/MedicId.

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