Sunday School

Sunday School 21st February 2021

This topic contains 75 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 1 month, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 76 total)
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  • #36567

    Kristina
    Participant

    Most of the ‘cry-bullying’ appears to be a response to the myriad ways conversation was toxic before anyone started speaking.

    If someone puts up an Israeli flag, and someone else asks them to take it down because it makes them feel “unsafe” – that’s cry-bullying at its most ridiculous. People remember stuff like that. It puts people off woke ideas. They (“woke activists”) have to take responsibility for calibre. If they were all as reasonable and intelligent as you, with your calibre – the landscape would look very different. At the moment, the situation is being wound up and provoked by wild Trump-style woke narcissists as hard as they can. Those people are working directly against the interests of “ordinary” people like you. I agree with wokeness generally – everyone should have the rights to be who they were born to be, without bias from society – etc. – but I was put off some good new stuff, by how it was presented, for about 3-4 years. Woke activists can’t act like children, they have to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

    You’re talking shit. If you can’t evaluate one idea because you’ve somehow lumped it together with another under some ‘woke’ banner, then you’re being irrational. Woke isn’t a discrete movement with a single ideology or universally shared set of views. It’s a loose term for a broad assortment of socially-driven causes and concerns and its made of millions of voices with different attitudes, perspectives and communication styles.

    You have no place calling other people babies or bullies. That is whiny, petulant behaviour if I’ve ever heard of it and you should be ashamed. I am serious. Ashamed. People are trying to have serious conversations, and here you need your delicate sensibilities sucked off for you to even listen?

    You had all the faculties of reason available to sort out what seemed reasonable and what didn’t, did you not? So what if the way it was delivered to you got your back up? There are plenty of sources available for almost any issue which give more measured explanations, all at your fingertips these days. Or do you not feel it is your responsibility to delve into how people around you are negatively impacted by the status quo?

    Obviously you can’t be expected to follow every issue or every scandal or delve into every point of view. But so much of woke territory is pretty salient to modern human rights and equity. Yes, there are definitely extreme people out there. But personally, I’ve also found so much eloquent and thoughtful commentary too as well as creative and even entertaining materials. Why would you dismiss all that because some people put you off?

    #36568

    @ivyWhy is that considered woo?

    These types of diets come from the fetid halls of Quackademia. There is no science behind them. It would seem they are created to get people to buy supplements. They make extravagant claims and offer no validated evidence to support those claims. Many of them are dangerous to your health.

    @simonWe evolved to cook our food, in my opinion.

    We evolved because we cooked our food.

    #36569

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Why would you dismiss all that because some people put you off?

    Because bullshit offends me.  It took me a while to get over my emotional reaction to it.  Now that I have got past the bullshit, I am more receptive to woke ideas.  Whose fault is all that?  Do activists not have a responsibility to model ideal behaviour?

    #36570

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    You’re outraged by a few outraged nuts.

    Maybe you’re right.  And yet, it seems to indicate a wider culture of self-righteous rudeness and incivility as a response to disagreement.

    #36571

    Kristina
    Participant

    Why would you dismiss all that because some people put you off?

    Because bullshit offends me.

    That doesn’t answer the question. You are dismissing valid arguments and non-bullshit content in the process all because what? You got your back up at some people? That’s irrational.

    It took me a while to get over my emotional reaction to it. Now that I have got past the bullshit, I am more receptive to woke ideas. Whose fault is all that?

    Yours. How many times does it have to be repeated to sink in? The woke movement is not a monolith. They aren’t ‘woke ideas’. They’re just ideas, and while certain ideas are more prevalent within woke circles, they not the sole domain of the woke neither are they all bound together is a lump sum package.

    Do activists not have a responsibility to model ideal behaviour?

    No. Whose ideals are they supposed to model? There is no unified set of ideal behaviour.

    There is something to be said for marketing to conversion, I suppose. Some behaviours are more likely to engage people than others. It all depends on what your end goal is and what resources you have available.

    But yet again, this dodges the point. The information was all there in other sources—including woke sources—that were less extreme or abrasive or went to greater lengths to make it more accessible or palatable.

    The example you gave of ‘cry-bullying at its most ridiculous’ doesn’t even make sense as presented. Why does the person want the Israeli flag taken down? Are they anti-semitic? Do they have strong opinions on Israel and despite having grown up far from that part of the world, the still categorize having to see that flag as making them feel unsafe?

    Or are they a refugee from Palestine? Because maybe they’ve been through some shit we can’t imagine. That doesn’t necessarily mean the flag should come down, but before I get all judgmental and condescending about it, maybe I should invest myself in understanding why that flag matters to either party.

    And if I don’t want to even bother trying to understand, maybe I should just step back I stick my foot in my mouth.

    #36572

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I accept that I probably have a skewed view of woke activism, in favour of the unfavourable.

    There is something to be said for marketing to conversion, I suppose. Some behaviours are more likely to engage people than others. It all depends on what your end goal is and what resources you have available.

    Yes Kristina – this.  I believe that in principle, activists have a responsibility to do their activism *well*, which includes actually trying to change people’s minds by what ever way works, instead of, frankly, bullying people.  Who’s going to listen to that?

    That doesn’t answer the question.

    Well, bullshit behaviour offends me, if that is any clearer.  I don’t listen to bullshit artists.  Who would?  Now, I agree that I do have a responsibility to investigate issues of injustice, for myself.  So, despite what I saw in the Woke World, I did this.  It’s taken a while, but I’ve done it.

     

    #36573

    Kristina
    Participant

    Yes Kristina – this. I believe that in principle, activists have a responsibility to do their activism *well*, which includes actually trying to change people’s minds by what ever way works, instead of, frankly, bullying people. Who’s going to listen to that?

    Are you now saying you were being bullied? I want you to think about what that word actually means. I don’t support bullying, yet I do find some people invoke that word too easily against things they merely don’t like or find uncomfortable.

    Sure, I have seen bullying from people who are ‘woke’. I’ve even seen assaults. But I’ve never seen that as the norm. And that’s not more characteristic of wokeness than it is of other groups in general in my experience.

    That said, not all activism can or should be soft sold. First, in some situations, the activist is speaking from a much more difficult position than you or I may be in as an audience. And if our attitude is that of a spoiled queen waving the, off with a ‘this does not amuse’ then maybe we need to reflect on ourselves.

    Second, some messages just aren’t going to be pleasant to hear.

    Third, as stated in previous posts, sometimes the more palatable approach is, ultimately the one we prefer only because our sense of what is civil is strangely identical to our sense of what doesn’t provoke us or force us out of our comfort zone. Sometimes the ‘ideal behaviour’ people want is the behaviour that is most convenient for them to ignore. While getting under someone’s skin may not always be the way to make friends, it can, at times, create the sort of discomfort which can be a stimulus for growth.

    But there is a deeper issue here. We’re not talking about a door-to-door salesman trying to sell you candies or makeup or vacuums or encyclopedia sets. We are talking about matters generally concerning equity, discrimination, violence and oppression. Yes, there is some shit that seems silly on the surface until you did deeper, and there is some shit that probably is just over-the-top. But that has nothing to do with wokeness per se.

    I gave you a whole bunch of examples of nonsense shit people have argued against my rights. But that doesn’t mean in all cases I can wave people off without a care.

    One issue that’s come up is transgender people and access to women’s shelters. There were stories claiming cisgender women had been kicked out of an abuse abuse shelter to make room for a transgender woman. It wasn’t true. They were kicked out because they leaked information on someone using the shelter to the media, which is reckless and inappropriate. Part of their complaint against this transgender woman was that she wore combat boots. I’m not saying that should have no significance to them, but cis women wear combat boots too, so is their issue that those boots should be banned?

    The point is this: while I have issues with some of the arguments leveraged against trans women in that situation, the reality is, some of the women who are concerned have been through some really bad shit. While I have been in abusive relationships, I’ve not had to fear for my physical safety the way some of these women have, I haven’t suffered the trauma some of them had. So while I have no sympathy for transphobia or for leaking information about people in shelters to the media, that doesn’t give me an excuse completely ignore all of their concerns. I don’t get a pass for failing to give consideration.

    I believe we have an ethical responsibility to care for those who suffer, and when we are in a position of privilege that affords us the ability to learn more about our impact on the world, we should be putting that work in, even if we’re not always treated nicely in the process.

    That doesn’t answer the question.

    Well, bullshit behaviour offends me, if that is any clearer. I don’t listen to bullshit artists. Who would? Now, I agree that I do have a responsibility to investigate issues of injustice, for myself. So, despite what I saw in the Woke World, I did this. It’s taken a while, but I’ve done it.

    No, it doesn’t clarify anything. I am not asking why you don’t listen to the portions of the movement that were, in your eyes, bullshit. I am asking why you used that as some sort of excuse to write off the portions that weren’t bullshit.

    You’ve said yourself in time you came around to some aspects of ideas that are generally considered woke. Are you now entertaining bullshit to patronize them, or have you come around to the realization that hey, it’s not all bullshit?

    Because if it’s the latter, I am flat out telling you that calmer, level-headed voices were in the conversation THE WHOLE TIME. Just a quick google search away. And yeah, it’s on you if you lost perspective or held an entire group of millions to a bizarre standard where they are accountable to the actions of a some despite not necessarily having any direct affiliation. And if even now you’re characterizing wokeness as witch-burners, well, I’m going to go out on a limb and say surely you have lost your perspective.

    From where I’m standing, in my life never has there been a movement more dedicated to elevating the voices of the disenfranchised and upsetting the status quo. Yes, there is bullshit in the mix, but it is not some unique woke™ brand bullshit—it’s the same bullshit present in nearly every group from knitting circles to political affiliations.

    #36574

    Strega
    Moderator

    @kristinaf Hi and welcome to AZ.

    I read your long post twice. I found it incredibly well informed and thoughtful. It’s good to be here at AZ where people don’t care about whether you are non binary or not, your sexual orientation or your skin color. Here, we are all black font on white screen (unless you’ve got some super clever formatting skills).

    People do, however, care a lot about what you choose to use that format for. And just a heads-up. You’re not just informing the readers who post in response, you are also informing our AZ ghosts (the large number of members who read but do not reply).

    Keep it up!

    #36575

    Kristina
    Participant

    Thanks @strega. I was actually on TA back in the day, only then under the name kris, or maybe under my full name. I left due to various reasons, but if memory serves, we were both mods at the same time before I ghosted right around the time site ownership shifted hands.

    #36576

    Strega
    Moderator

    Bloody Hell, Kristina!  What a wonderful surprise!  I’ve missed your thoughtful posts – nobody ever posted quite like you.  It no longer surprises me how much I’ve enjoyed reading your input on this thread. Still delighted, but not as surprised.

    Welcome home. I’m so happy to hear from you 🙂

    #36577

    Davis
    Moderator

    And yet, it seems to indicate a wider culture of self-righteous rudeness and incivility as a response to disagreement.

    It’s a pity you continue to feel this way.

    #36578

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Are you now saying you were being bullied?

    No, I’m saying I’ve seen it happen as a persistent activism style.

    I am asking why you used that as some sort of excuse to write off the portions that weren’t bullshit.

    If somebody is screaming into somebody’s face, metaphorically or otherwise, purely because they disagree – nobody is going to take seriously what they have to say.  I could ask you why you don’t understand that.

     

    #36579

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Are you now entertaining bullshit to patronize them, or have you come around to the realization that hey, it’s not all bullshit?

    That’s a reasonable question.  I was anti-racist, anti-sexist, pro-LBGT+ etc. before, but I wasn’t familiar with some of the newer manifestations of these.  These newer manifestations (some of them) took a while to catch on for me, because the godawful way they had been presented made me doubt their possible truth.

    #36580

    Davis
    Moderator

    If somebody is screaming into somebody’s face, metaphorically or otherwise, purely because they disagree – nobody is going to take seriously what they have to say

    No Simon. I would say that decades of inaction (nobody caring to change harmful oppressive cultural norms) and then people getting loud bringing about actually change would show that your argument is very wrong.

    It’s not always just a case of people “having a different opinion”. It’s people who face insults, possibly physical violence, fewer opportunities, problems with the police, social aggression and discrimination. In some cases it’s not just a person who thinks that ketchup goes better on hot dogs and is being nasty because people don’t agree. It can be people who refuse to continue being treated that way. If sometimes the only way to get blatant harmful racism to be, at least far less brazen…is to be loud then do you blame people for being loud? And even then…are they being loud or are they just not doing things in a way that is convenient for you? Is this representative of a general problem or is this a false narrative you’ve latched onto with you hyper focusing on irrelevant outliers?

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #36582

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Davis! Ketchup on hotdogs ! Your kind has no place in my world. Better not come around here. So Disgusting.

    Joey 10:2

    “thou shall take only mustard on the hotdog or may 10,000 wild boar trample the traitor.”

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 76 total)

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