Sunday School

[DavisModerator]

one of those being the toxic bitch-fest currently known as the Left

Simon…despite everything Kristina said you are still hyper and grossly overgeneralising about the “left” and cancel culture. Kristina didn’t talk about cancel culture per se nor generalised about any group of people but talked about her own frustrations in communicating the same thing to people who wouldn’t listen. You are projecting your own ideas on to her text and have missed out on the many insightful things she has said.

None of those three people were the totally calm pushovers you make them out to be. MLK was very loud, denounced people who were offensive and called for boycots. He was very much a part of cancel culture at the time. Ghandi called for many boycots (as did Mandela), called out the British for their oppression against the various India states, denounced specific people for the hurtful things they said and endlessly cried foul. I don’t know where you got this idea they were just soft-spoken intellectual peace-speakers who gently asked people to recognise how harmful what they were doing was and to pretty please give up their privilege. All three of them were blatantly their epoch’s version of Cancel Culture Crusaders. They were loud, obnoxious pests to those in power at the time and their disruptive style of campaigning was seen by everyone who opposed them as shrill, in your face nasty cancel culture. Can’t you see you are hyper-generalising now about people advocating for justice…in the same way people denounced Ghandi and MLK during their times?

I swear by the way you talk sometimes you sound like you listened to too much Rush Limbaugh, Nigel Farage and Donald Trump.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Davis.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Davis.

[_Robert_Participant]

I used to be concerned the far left shifting “the center” over to the right with their crazy antics. I agreed with Sam Harris, basically. I have come to realize that in the US at least, folks who I considered to be “moderates” were already much more far to the right than I thought. And they swarmed to Trump’s defense in droves. I am still shaking my head in disbelief.

Many of these same people were part of (or were on the edge of) the 1960’s liberal revolution. Rock and Roll. Free Sex. Black Power, Peace Man. WTF happened?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Also, news flash – cancel culture is toxic.

@kristinaf – sorry, I shouldn’t have laid this at your door.  It wasn’t you who brought it up or advocated it.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@davis – I enjoyed listening to Kristina’s perspective.

The primary function of any civil rights activist is to denounce injustice.  Then, presumably, some kinds of protest, whereby they show the whole world in dignified and respectable ways, which can include strikes and boycotts, the reality of their oppressed situation for everyone to see.

King, Mandela and Ghandi were people we could look up to, because they conducted themselves properly.  What they didn’t do is act like silly, authoritarian brats, whom nobody can listen to or respect.  I have come across a lot of this attitude in the culture.  Those people make the whole thing look really bad to everyone else.

The Right is every bit as bad, in their own way (in the US anyway).

[DavisModerator]

What they didn’t do is act like silly, authoritarian brats, whom nobody can listen to o’r respect.

Uhhhh…that is EXACTLY how they were characterised by people who resisted their activism. But don’t let me stop you projecting your idealised version of history onto them nor your hypergeneralising.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

The real problem as I see it, is that a minority of extremists on both Left and Right (particularly in the US) are ruling the roost, stirring the pot, and generally causing a lot of unnecessary social trouble, among their own people and with the world.  I think extremism attracts toxic people, which is why this minority will never want peace or solutions, only more conflict and drama.

Meanwhile, and this is why I feel strongly about the situation, regular people like Kristina are let down by drama-creating narcissists who are claiming to fight her corner, – like left-wing Trumps, in a way.

[AutumnParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

All I’m saying is that people who are good examples of behaviour (e.g., Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela) get a lot further than entitled cry-bullies who love nothing more than attacking people’s character when they disagree.

You are missing the point. ‘entitled cry-bullies’ isn’t a thing of left or right or woke or whatever the antonym of woke is. Most of the ‘cry-bullying’ appears to be a response to the myriad ways conversation was toxic before anyone started speaking.

You are vastly underestimating the barriers to advocacy. People know how to deal with a Ghandi or MLK or Mandela—pure, unadulterated, en masse passive-aggression and propaganda. The modern era is one in which on the surface everyone agrees discrimination is bad and we should all be equal, but if you ever point it out, they’re suddenly struck deaf and dumb or are possibly even aggrieved. Everyone is there for the kumbaya, but hardly anyone is there for the work toward change (or even willing to step to the side if they’re in the way). For all MLK did, look how many problems persist, some of which have worsened?

And to be honest, if we weren’t looking at them in the rearview mirror, they probably would be labelled ‘cry-bullies’ in the modern era.

I remember having an argument with my mother about BLM after they disrupted the pride parade in Toronto and called out pride Vancouver (mostly over police presence). She was talking about she agreed with some of what they said, but not the way they went about it. There was a way to go about things. But I explained that the BLM chapters in those areas had already been doing things that way she thought was right and they were effectively ignored. It wasn’t until they got louder that anyone wanted to listen, and while it’s sad it came to confrontation, the root of the confrontation is less likely to be the way BLM went about things, but rather the fact that nobody wanted to have an uncomfortable conversation on a topic that might unsettle their worldview or make them question facets of their own identity or tacit support for institutions that may enforce racism (and other complex emotional/ identity issues).

The proper way to protest, apparently, is in the way you will be effectively ignored.

Maybe a couple of decades ago, I’d have been the sort of person who scoffs at some of the terminology the so-called woke use:
micro-aggressions
tone policing
concern trolling
sea lioning
pink washing
(etc.)

But the more I’ve been engaged, the more I’ve understood why people have put terms to certain behaviours. One of the most difficult things to do is to get someone to address the actual point you are making. When that happens due to the inherent complexity of these conversations or miscommunication in general, fine. Frustrating, but fine. But when you’ve been in enough conversations and debates, it becomes clear that the same tactics are employed to never address the point being made or the concern being raised or to just out and out frustrate the conversation.

To be honest, I prefer this woke world even if I can’t really keep up with everything. Admittedly, the stark polarization we see on social media (and media in general, perhaps) is unsettling, but that isn’t a ‘woke’ issue. To me it is a world that is hyper-analytical and critical and requires you to brutally self-reflect. When I say hyper-analytical, I don’t always mean competent analysis. I just mean there is a high level of scrutiny. Because the more I reflect on my stances, the more resolved I get to speak from conviction. Either I incorporate the criticism and expand my world view, or I stick to my guns knowing I’ve been vetting my positions and I’m willing to take negative response for it.

I’m not too fussed about how nice people are about it. (2+2=4) and (2+2=4, asshole) both convey the same information as far as the math is concerned. I don’t dismiss the argument because my poor widdle feelings got hurt. I mean, nothing the woke levels at me even remotely compares to what I was going through. No, I don’t love being called a racist or ableist or what have you, but it’s so light compared to what I’m ordinarily called. And in this case, it’s usually either impersonal (statements about general principle and social mechanics) or it’s about views I hold or have expressed rather than some innate, unalterable aspect of my personality.

Hey, maybe someday I’ll get cancelled for something and that might be devastating. But again, I’ve already be pre-cancelled for most of my life. So many jobs I’d never have been able to have if I were out. And actually having a voice in society or rising to celebrity? Hah. Let’s just categorize that as ‘technically not impossible’ as there are a handful of people over the last century who managed it to some degree prior to the broader recognition of trans rights. To me, cancellation is not a matter of woke tactics; it’s a byproduct of the type of capitalism we support. Action is predicated on damage to brand image. So again, if I have to roll the dice on whether I will be cancelled for some immutable characteristic, or for how I’ve chosen to act and treat others.

I’m all for a massive cultural transformation where woke-ness is unnecessary and cancel culture is irrelevant. But in the current paradigm, whether I view it from a lens of those ways in which I am incredibly privileged or through a lens of those ways I am not, I don’t really mind these particular social phenomena. I don’t think they are cry-bullies; I think they’re adaptive in a game that was rigged from the start.

[_Robert_Participant]

The modern era is one in which on the surface everyone agrees discrimination is bad and we should all be equal, but if you ever point it out, they’re suddenly struck deaf and dumb or are possibly even aggrieved. Everyone is there for the kumbaya, but hardly anyone is there for the work toward change (or even willing to step to the side if they’re in the way). For all MLK did, look how many problems persist, some of which have worsened?

Yep, I effectively skirted conflict many times when the situation actually called for it. I would rather give monetary donations towards a social justice cause (that moves me) than actually get in the fight, personally. It is true that so many people around here would never consider themselves to be racists despite their ignorant behavior.

[DavisModerator]

Either I incorporate the criticism and expand my world view, or I stick to my guns knowing I’ve been vetting my positions and I’m willing to take negative response for it.

Which is how it should be. I wrestled with the Toronto disruption to the pride event. I highly disagreed with a couple of their points but not for a second did I think that them disrupting the event was wrong. Yes Pride was an event that was a celebration for a marginalised group of people but it isn’t as if there aren’t marginalised groups within that marginalised group (I personally know gay people who are transphobic or don’t want trans people coming into their favourite bar and I know gay people who are racist towards black LGBTQ+ people).

I took flack for disagreeing with excluding LGTBQ+ police from being in the parade. For me, for the love of fucking god…excluding any LGTBQ+ person because of their profession is despicable. Gay police for instance have to deal with their own terrible struggles being an out member in a highly misogynistic environment and should be celebrated for being the first or second generation to deal with the brunt of resistance to them joining and to pave the way to make it slightly easier for future generations. I could possibly understand the idea of excluding non-LGTBQ+ police floats as LGTBQ+ people and especially non-white LGTBQ+ have had difficult experiences with the police (though I’d prefer any group to be able to march) but excluding the LGTBQ+ police is vicious. I worked out my reasoning, I stand by it and I have been highly criticised for it. And I understand why people would passionately criticise it. Why should I feel that I must be immune to people who are even more marginalised than I am expressing their frustration (or even fury) with the injustices they experience. Should I expect them to advocate in a format that is more convenient for me?

And if a handful of idiots insult me…why would I give a shit? People insult the shit out of each other online all the time and in America strangers can randomly insult you in the street. I understand their fury and I accept that a small number of nuts going a little too far is the price we pay for a small amount of improvement in people’s lives happening.

 

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Davis.

[DavisModerator]

Simon…the media and social media (and especially conservative forums) like to point out the truly tiny number of moments of cancel culture that are extreme or even outrageous and then paint social justice activism with that brush. That is ridiculously unfair, hyper generalising and a reaction by those who don’t want to deal with the broader problems that these activists are trying to deal with. The voices of these nuts are amplified by parts of the media because those parts of the media WANT to amplify them…not because they particularly matter or are representative of the broader movement. And you are playing into their game. You seem outraged by a  small group of people’s actions even though they are, on a grander scale…and absolutely trivial part of it. You’re outraged by a few outraged nuts.

[AutumnParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Yep, I effectively skirted conflict many times when the situation actually called for it. I would rather give monetary donations towards a social justice cause (that moves me) than actually get in the fight, personally. It is true that so many people around here would never consider themselves to be racists despite their ignorant behavior.

There are definitely cases where I’ve gone a similar route—monetary donations, linking to existing resources, supporting legislation or policy decision in place of direct confrontation. Especially on issues where I’m in the privileged group. It’s not that I feel I should never speak up or that I am not allowed to, but rather there is a line between using privilege to dismantle things that are messed up, and stirring shit up under the banner of some saviour complex. I also can’t really speak from authority or experience with regard to the discrimination faced by others.

Personally, I’ve stepped off a sort of mindset where I need to think of myself as being either racist or not racist. Racism in Canada is baked into the culture in weird ways. In retrospect, it’s bizarre how many things baked into my upbringing seemed to make sense at the time, especially with regard to the various indigenous peoples. So many blind spots. Makes me wonder how many more I have. Not even just with regard to racism and bigotry, but with how the nation behaves generally and how much of a divide there is between the virtues we preach and the reality we live.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Autumn.

[AutumnParticipant]

Davis wrote:

I took flack for disagreeing with excluding LGTBQ+ police from being in the parade. For me, for the love of fucking god…excluding any LGTBQ+ person because of their profession is despicable.

I used to have more ambivalence on that. As I remember it, the desire wasn’t for banning LGBTQ+ police marching, but rather from participating in uniform. One one hand, lots of people don’t really have the option of participating as representatives of their profession or industry. In Vancouver, they banned the BC Liberal Party from participating due to their refusal to enact trans rights protections. I am certain there were LGBTQ+ BC Liberals at the time. They could march, but not under the party banner.

On the other hand, as you said, many of those officers went through a lot of shit to try and make inroads. I can understand why marching in uniform would be important. How important? No clue. Never been in their shoes, though I’ve heard first and second-hand stories of shit people have had to deal with, some of it quite extreme.

Ultimately any of those considerations felt light against the concerns of those who don’t feel comfortable around the police. That’s not a point of general principle. Not everyone feels comfortable around me, I suppose, but that’s generally not a reason I should be prohibited from aspects public life. It’s specific to harm communities have suffered and why some people don’t feel safe in the presence of officers of the law.

In Vancouver if I recall correctly, it was mostly to do with scaling back police presence. For instance, not having uniformed officers in the parade itself, or stationed in view of the activities. Not having the armoured vehicles they bought present at the parade. It was awhile ago, so I don’t remember everything, but over the years more and more has come to light about how the police have harassed or targeted or even killed people. It’s not that no one was saying anything before; it was just getting drowned out most of the time.

More and more I think the system of policing we have can’t really be redeemed. There are limited instances where the level of force they can bring to a situation makes sense, but in so many situations they just aren’t there to help and they may even result in more harm. Even officers who do want to do right by people likely aren’t well equipped to do so.

In 2019 I was living in the West End, right were the parade ends. It’s strange walking through your neighbourhood to get groceries seeing officers carrying rifles. I do understand if someone tried to take extreme action such as driving a vehicle through the parade, the VPD would be criticized for not taking action, yet there is a bizarre amount of power entrusted to these individuals, and the checks and balances to make sure it is not misapplied don’t seem to function all that consistently.

My ambivalence has decreased. I think it is important to recognize the officers who have worked toward making things better and to recognize things have changed, but at the same time, I don’t think everyone feels safe around police and I wouldn’t expect everyone to, so it seems like there must be some better way to tell the stories of LGBTQ+ police officers at pride than marching in uniform.

Like most things, issues are complicated. I certainly believe you when you say you’ve taken flack. I think, on that one, pretty much everyone who opened their mouth on the issue did regardless of their stance. Although, it’s more difficult in situations where the in and out groups being formed may create tension within or even exclude us from communities we actually give a shit about.

[Belle RoseParticipant]

The Hallelujah diet seems like a hall of a diet…same as the raw vegan diet. Why is that considered woo? I just recently saw a documentary about plant-based diet. Don’t know what to believe anymore

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Kristina wrote:

Most of the ‘cry-bullying’ appears to be a response to the myriad ways conversation was toxic before anyone started speaking.

If someone puts up an Israeli flag, and someone else asks them to take it down because it makes them feel “unsafe” – that’s cry-bullying at its most ridiculous.

People remember stuff like that.  It puts people off woke ideas.  They (“woke activists”) have to take responsibility for calibre.  If they were all as reasonable and intelligent as you, with your calibre – the landscape would look very different.  At the moment, the situation is being wound up and provoked by wild Trump-style woke narcissists as hard as they can.  Those people are working directly against the interests of “ordinary” people like you.

I agree with wokeness generally – everyone should have the rights to be who they were born to be, without bias from society – etc. – but I was put off some good new stuff, by how it was presented, for about 3-4 years.  Woke activists can’t act like children, they have to take responsibility for their own behaviour.

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Ivy wrote:

The Hallelujah diet seems like a hall of a diet…same as the raw vegan diet. Why is that considered woo?

It sounds a bit cranky to me.  I used to study yoga, and the yoga teacher was 90+, and he was too old to digest raw food.  We evolved to cook our food, in my opinion.

A plant-based diet – mostly plants – is sensible I have heard.

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