Sunday School

Sunday School 21st February 2021

This topic contains 75 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 1 month, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 76 total)
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  • #36583

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    And if even now you’re characterizing wokeness as witch-burners, well, I’m going to go out on a limb and say surely you have lost your perspective.

    You’ve educated me about your perspective as a trans woman, which I appreciate, and given me a glimpse into your “woke world”, which I also appreciate.  But you haven’t entirely converted me away from my previous view that wokeness is inherently self-righteous and authoritarian, and lacks responsibility, and therefore, lies somewhere on the witch-burning spectrum.  This is something that other people are always complaining about.  It’s an issue that wokeness needs to address.

    Is this representative of a general problem or is this a false narrative you’ve latched onto with you hyper focusing on irrelevant outliers?

    They may or may not be outliers.  I can understand people making a fuss about things.  But it depends how they do it.  These outliers love trouble.  Sometimes it just turns off the people they’re presumably hoping to convert.

    #36584

    Kristina
    Participant
    No, I’m saying I’ve seen it happen as a persistent activism style.

    What does that have to do with being woke, specifically? I told you flat out, on the other end I have personally been through that and far worse. I don’t use that as an excuse to shut down all conversation.

    If somebody is screaming into somebody’s face, metaphorically or otherwise, purely because they disagree – nobody is going to take seriously what they have to say. I could ask you why you don’t understand that.

    If someone shouts in your face, it makes sense that you don’t want to listen to that specific person. It doesn’t make sense that you would ignore the message when that message is much bigger than that person, is of considerable social importance, and is being discussed in reasonable terms in places you can access.

    When it comes to how ‘woke’ is presented, people want to make it out to be this (the ‘triggered’ meme used to show the woke as unhinged):

    triggered meme

    To avoid avoid engaging with this:

    These newer manifestations (some of them) took a while to catch on for me, because the godawful way they had been presented made me doubt their possible truth.

    I don’t think it’s the responsibility of marginalized peoples to bust down our doors to spoon feed us information on how society may be dysfunctional. It’s a reality that the way we live collectively is contributing to undue hardship, and I have some responsibility to invest time learning about that.

    I imagine I am walking down the street and someone shouts, “I need an ambulance. Someone call the hospital.”
    I look over and see someone with a clearly broken leg. They shout at me again, “Hey, call emergency asshole! What the fuck’s wrong with you, dick?”
    Maybe I don’t like the way I’m being shouted at, but they’re in pain.
    Another passerby not in pain and not involved looks at me and says, “Yeah, asshole. What’s your deal?”
    I have no space in my life for that sort of thing.

    Maybe I get pissed off at both these people.
    You know what I don’t do? Just turn my back on them. I still call emergency and stick around because even if it’s not my leg and even if they were rude, I need to be responsive to what’s in front of me.

    When it comes to issues branded ‘woke’, no, I don’t agree with all of them. No, I don’t agree with how every message is delivered in every instance. I never have for any movement anywhere as far as I can recall. But given the subject matter being addressed, regardless of wether I want to be friends with someone being rude or aggressive, I do tend to respond in one of two ways:
    i) Look up what they were talking about later and try to understand it if I have the resources and time to do so.
    ii) Not prejudicially dismiss the message if I don’t just because someone wasn’t nice to me.

    I do that because most of the time what they are talking about isn’t just about me and it isn’t just about them. It’s about how we impact society. And I care about that. I feel personal responsibility to keep growing on that front up until two days before I die. (Two days before, because if I see it coming and there is a possibility of an end of life feast, that’s going to be a full day affair).

    Do you understand what I am getting at at all here? I am not giving a pass to people being rude or mean, generally, neither am I bewildered at why you wouldn’t want to listen to someone ‘screaming into somebody’s face’. I am saying we have a responsbility to be inquisitive on our social impact regardless of whether other people are always nice to us.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Kristina. Reason: wrong time stamp
    #36585

    Kristina
    Participant

    And if even now you’re characterizing wokeness as witch-burners, well, I’m going to go out on a limb and say surely you have lost your perspective.

    You’ve educated me about your perspective as a trans woman, which I appreciate, and given me a glimpse into your “woke world”, which I also appreciate. But you haven’t entirely converted me away from my previous view that wokeness is inherently self-righteous and authoritarian, and lacks responsibility, and therefore, lies somewhere on the witch-burning spectrum. This is something that other people are always complaining about. It’s an issue that wokeness needs to address.

    How is it ‘inherently’ self-righteous and authoritarian? Is it self-righteous to believe in equity and advocacy for marginalized groups? Authoritarian to believe black people shouldn’t be summarily executed by police at traffic stops? Lacking in responsibility to challenge the status quo if it systemically favours some to the detriment of others when it need not do so?

    Perhaps it is incidentally those things in some cases. But what you are failing to establish is that this is something particular to the ‘woke’ as opposed to behaviours generally present in massive, informal population segments with incredibly diverse behaviours and views.

    #36586

    Kristina
    Participant

    Davis! Ketchup on hotdogs ! Your kind has no place in my world. Better not come around here. So Disgusting. Joey 10:2 “thou shall take only mustard on the hotdog or may 10,000 wild boar trample the traitor.”

    Question: As a pro-ketchup heathen, will I have a chance to pet one of the boars before the death trampling happens? Are they the big burly boars or more like peccaries? You know what, no, that’s now two questions. It doesn’t matter. Just the first question is all.

    #36588

    Hey Kristina  – “This post has now been featured” 🙂 🙂

    Plus what Strega said.

    #36589

    Davis
    Moderator

    They may or may not be outliers.  I can understand people making a fuss about things.  But it depends how they do it.  These outliers love trouble.  Sometimes it just turns off the people they’re presumably hoping to convert.

    Simon it seems to me that you are being as ridiculously over-outraged over the very over-outrage you are criticising.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #36591

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Kristina – that’s fine, and I do take a responsibility to educate myself about marginalised groups and their difficulties.  But if someone’s acting like a silly arse, while trying to tell everyone they have problems – people aren’t going to believe they have problems.  That’s the way people are.  It’s not morally wrong.  It just is.  Therefore, they have a responsibility not to act like silly arses, if they want their message to look credible.

    How is it ‘inherently’ self-righteous and authoritarian?

    Because woke people (as I have seen) often try to shut down others, because they think they are right and, apparently, they don’t have to take responsibility for their behaviour.

    I don’t think it’s the responsibility of marginalized peoples to bust down our doors to spoon feed us information on how society may be dysfunctional.

    Why not?  How else are the rest of us going to hear about it?  Are they children?  If I’m having issues, and I think I don’t have to tell anybody about it – I’m partially responsible for the lack of a solution.  If people don’t listen – then that’s their fault.

    But what you are failing to establish is that this is something particular to the ‘woke’ as opposed to behaviours generally present in massive, informal population segments with incredibly diverse behaviours and views.

    Who else tries to shut others down?  The other extreme, the extreme Right, Trump etc.  I see a similar authoritarian psychology at work.

    Apart from that, I accept that most “woke” people are normal and don’t have personality disorders.  As activists, they have a duty (i.e., it’s good policy for success) to model the kind of behaviour they are expecting the rest of us to copy.  I’m not saying they don’t already.  I’m saying they have a responsibility to do it – as MLK, Mandela, and Ghandi (apart from the young-girls incident) recognised.

    #36592

    Kristina
    Participant

    Kristina – that’s fine, and I do take a responsibility to educate myself about marginalised groups and their difficulties.

    Do you? You said it took you two years to come around to ideas that I flat out swear to you were presented reasonably by other activists that were not that difficult to search out. On nearly every issue there are advocacy groups that make it their business to provide resources, breakdowns and explanations on most issues.

    Instead you’ve basically glommed on to this bizarre ad hom.

    But what you are failing to establish is that this is something particular to the ‘woke’ as opposed to behaviours generally present in massive, informal population segments with incredibly diverse behaviours and views.

    Who else tries to shut others down? The other extreme, the extreme Right, Trump etc. I see a similar authoritarian psychology at work. Apart from that, I accept that most “woke” people are normal and don’t have personality disorders.

    On the issues of equity, equality and human rights, the general population. I’ve already been over this. Did you think the stuff I was talking about in my first post was from the extreme right? It’s not. It’s prevalent in the general population.

    #36593

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I don’t have to explain to you why I wasn’t “woke” enough.  If an idea doesn’t have credibility, I’m not going to be attracted to it.

    #36594

    Kristina
    Participant

    Kristina – that’s fine, and I do take a responsibility to educate myself about marginalised groups and their difficulties.

    Do you? You said it took you 3-4 years to come around to ideas that I flat out swear to you were presented reasonably by other activists that were not that difficult to search out. On nearly every issue there are advocacy groups that make it their business to provide resources, breakdowns and explanations on most issues. Instead you’ve basically glommed on to this bizarre ad hom.

    Who else tries to shut others down? The other extreme, the extreme Right, Trump etc. I see a similar authoritarian psychology at work. Apart from that, I accept that most “woke” people are normal and don’t have personality disorders.

    On the issues of equity, equality and human rights, the general population. That’s where it starts.

    I’ve already been over this. Did you think the stuff I was talking about in my first post was from the extreme right? It’s not. It’s prevalent in the general population. It tends to decrease from left to right over time, but that’s not where it begins. You have to fight tooth and nail to even begin a conversation on these issues, and when you finally do, people will drag the conversation down over and over and over for decades. Literally decades.

    #36595

    Simon Paynton
    Participant
    You posted the same answer twice.

    On the issues of equity, equality and human rights, the general population. That’s where it starts. I’ve already been over this. Did you think the stuff I was talking about in my first post was from the extreme right? It’s not. It’s prevalent in the general population.

    But two wrongs don’t make a right.  Just because other people shut people down – doesn’t make it OK for woke people to do it.  That is not grown-up morality.

    Do you? You said it took you 3-4 years to come around to ideas that I flat out swear to you were presented reasonably by other activists that were not that difficult to search out.

    You’re sounding like the “woke police”.  You’re not really changing my mind about the self-righteous authoritarianism.  People (I don’t mean you necessarily) need to take some responsibility for how they come across, and how credible they are.

     

    #36596

    Kristina
    Participant
    edit: I’ve decided in hindsight this is my last post in the exchange. By all means, I won’t begrudge you a response to it. No disrespect and no hard feelings, but I feel we’ve run this circle well past the point of absurdity. It feels like you’ve not really addressed what I’ve been saying, and whatever it is you may feel I am missing in your argument, I’m at a loss for what it is. Continuing will only entrench bias at the moment, I’m afraid. :edit
    ~~~

    But two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because other people shut people down – doesn’t make it OK for woke people to do it. That is not grown-up morality.

    Who said they did? I said it’s not an issue particular to the woke movement. It’s part of general group dynamics. It really undercuts the ad hom you’ve been pushing.

    When I say ad hom, I am referring to what seems to be you having rejected ideas presented to you not based on the merits of the ideas themselves, but based on your personal feelings toward the people presenting the arguments.

    Do you? You said it took you 3-4 years to come around to ideas that I flat out swear to you were presented reasonably by other activists that were not that difficult to search out.

    You’re sounding like the “woke police”. You’re not really changing my mind about the self-righteous authoritarianism. People (I don’t mean you necessarily) need to take some responsibility for how they come across, and how credible they are.

    Those people aren’t here. You are here. And you keep deflecting a criticism levelled against you by blaming others for your choices in the matter. I am not saying they are not responsible for them despite having sympathy for what it is like being on the marginalized side of an issue. I am saying you are responsible for you.

    Regardless of how they behaved, you had the means and I would contend the ethical responsibility to look into matters that concern inequity, racism and systems of oppression. That responsibility is yours as a member of society, not the responsibility of others to feed it to you.

     

    #36597

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I’ve got nothing to say that I haven’t said 9 times already.  I shake your hand Kristina.

    #36598

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    Man, what a difference a few days makes!  Where do I start with this thread? 😕😁

    If it’s any solace, Kristina, if I were an entrepreneur, I wouldn’t have time to shut down or be shut down on a forum or platform.  My business would be open to any paying customer or to a niche market that has nothing to do with immutable traits.

    My employment policy would be to look strictly for merit and  ability, not immutable, irrelevant traits.  Just be stone-cold sober and ready to work every work-day and all is good.

    And any physical plant I have would have a whole row of single-stall unisex restrooms, the restrooms that are friendliest and easiest to clean and maintain.  No men’s room horse-stables from the glue factory and no women’s room massacre scenes from a Sam*sniff!* Peckinpah film.

    And if I were an architect, every one of my creations would have a row of single-stall unisex restrooms.  My firm’s motto would be: “The form of a can must always follows it’s function.”🚾🚻

    And if other businesses don’t follow these inclusive policies, then that’s more business, market share, and labor pool for me.💰💲

    Works out good for all of us.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Removing an 'H' as in 'H.B. 2.'
    #36602

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg and Strega,

    You two could have been Jay Ward’s top groaner-pun writers, especially for his characters Mr. Peabody and Sherman.  😁

    (Sometimes they are called Mr. Peabody and His Boy Sherman, but, even for the “woke,” that is just multiple-smooth levels of wrongness. 🤡🤣)

     

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