Sunday School

Sunday School August 28th 2022

This topic contains 69 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  PopeBeanie 4 weeks, 1 day ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 70 total)
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  • #44378

    jakelafort
    Participant

    If you are an alien and seeking kinship and connection with another group of aliens and you first discover that they have gods and need to protect free speech ya best turn your ship in the direction of another planet or wherever intelligent life is developing.

    How pathetic is it that we need to balance consequences of free speech with the value of free speech? If only the free market place of ideas were not a myth! If we are not a bunch of Yahoos i am joe my ass.

    #44379

    Unseen
    Participant

    Anybody who has the courage to do it would be free to knock themselves out.  If handled by non-racists, I’m sure it would be very enlightening to open this can of worms.  The problem is that racists would jump all over it, in their disingenuous way.

    Mendel’s study of genetics wasn’t racist in execution or result. It was what happened to the data afterward that became the problem.

    #44380

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn, the problem with science is not science. It is scientists. I have shared this already but it struck me how Jane Goodall was disparaged as a young woman when she first shared her observations about chimps with older White male scientists. “Oh she is just being anthropomorphic, the dear and naive girl…

    Her perspective was borne of observation without preconceptions. They assumed the religious/cultural ethos of special creation.

    So it is with some scientists today.

    #44381

    Unseen
    Participant

    Why are we so much more uncomfortable over a study relating intelligence to race vs. one relating physical abilities to race. Substitute average penis size for race.

    A study of why kids whose roots go back to the Indian subcontinent so routinely win spelling bees could prove interesting.

    #44382

    Autumn
    Participant

    How pathetic is it that we need to balance consequences of free speech with the value of free speech? If only the free market place of ideas were not a myth! If we are not a bunch of Yahoos i am joe my ass.

    The difficulty is presenting information around the quirks of human cognitive function and sociological biases. We are a quasi-rational species.

    #44383

    Davis
    Moderator

    As far as I am aware, there have not been any demonstrations of any “race” having any notable superiority of intelligence over another one that was withstood the easiest of criticism regarding: level of education, the kind of testing done (biased towards what one groups perceived as intelligent) and taking into account upbringing, income, opportunity and privilege. For example any case where a marginalised group seemed to be even a little less intelligent on testing, disappeared once a sufficient number of those marginalised people, who were adopted and raised within a privileged household were tested. If everything is controlled for and accounted for and yet still a group of people are tested notably less intelligent than another group, I am prepared to accept that, regardless of the consequences. I would like someone to cite rigorous testing that stands up to the scrutiny of even mild criticism of how the tests were organised, carried out and analysed that shows one group is more than trivially less intelligent than another.

    #44384

    Autumn
    Participant

    Autumn, the problem with science is not science. It is scientists. I have shared this already but it struck me how Jane Goodall was disparaged as a young woman when she first shared her observations about chimps with older White male scientists. “Oh she is just being anthropomorphic, the dear and naive girl… Her perspective was borne of observation without preconceptions. They assumed the religious/cultural ethos of special creation. So it is with some scientists today.

    I agree. But while you pointed out a fairly overt case, realistically any and all of us are susceptible. Even when we try to adopt a state of objectivity and impartiality, the potential for bias has to be accounted for in many areas of study.

    #44385

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Autumn’s: I agree. But while you pointed out a fairly overt case, realistically any and all of us are susceptible. Even when we try to adopt a state of objectivity and impartiality, the potential for bias has to be accounted for in many areas of study.

    SPOT ON

    #44388

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Mendel’s study of genetics wasn’t racist in execution or result. It was what happened to the data afterward that became the problem.

    Maybe what happened to the data afterwards is a subject worthy of study in itself.

    #44392

    Unseen
    Participant

    Mendel’s study of genetics wasn’t racist in execution or result. It was what happened to the data afterward that became the problem.

    Maybe what happened to the data afterwards is a subject worthy of study in itself.

    I think you’ll find that there is ample research on the topic. Just google on “genetic science’s role in racist theory”.

    #44393

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    Wokeness is a snarl word that some people use to blanket criticise people who work towards making life bearable to those who face endless racism, sexism, homophobia, discrimination because of disability and countless other things that make one marginalised. The world, and my own life, is immensely better and more bearable, because of people who stand up for treating others with dignity, chipping away at biggotry, discrimination, passive indifference to suffering and those who try to pretend that we live in a post-racist, post-sexist, post-homophobic world.

    You mean Woke people like this guy?

    James Wong on gardens
    Is it time we ditched the word ‘gardening’?
    The term might seem inoffensive, but it’s loaded with cultural baggage
    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/aug/28/james-wong-on-gardening-is-it-time-we-ditched-the-word-gardening-

    And not even a word of rational explanation why.

    Last time I read of “Gardeners” being a bad thing, they were called “Kulaks, Wreckers, Saboteurs, and Counter-Revolutionaries.” That’s what Joseph Stalin and henchmen called independent food producers whom they forced into collective farms, forced to use Trofim Lysenko’s anti-Genetic pseudoscience to try and grow grain in the dead of Winter, then when the producers didn’t hit their quota, Stalin confiscated their storage of grain, denied them food imports and thus piled starvation on top of starvation, exterminating millions in Ukraine’s Holodolmar.

    Perhaps James Wong is backhandedly giving gardeners a bad name as a prelude to a repeat of the Holodolmar. As with many others who think like him, I don’t think he gets out much. Perhaps he should ask one of the 2 billion people saved from starvation in Asia by private land plots and techniques of The Green Revolution whether being a gardener is a bad thing.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: I hit submit too early
    #44395

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen

    Should genetics have ever been studied?

    Absolutely yes. To quote Terence: “I am human and nothing human is foreign to me.”

    Sure, it’s discoveries have yielded countless benefits, but it’s also been misunderstood and misapplied in ways used to justify racism, eugenics, conquest (of “inferior peoples”), and the holocaust. And that’s not to mention the myriad folks who’ve been discriminated against and insulted based on misunderstandings of genetics.

    Racism, Tribalism, Eugenics, Conquest, Imperialism, and Anti-Semitism all existed prior to both Darwin’s Theory of Evolution and Gregor Mendel’s first studies of Genetics. Even when these evils happened after these discoveries in science, it all happened before the more thorough understanding brought by Watson and Crick’s discovery of DNA and the mapping of The Human Genome. So there is definitely no correlation between these evils of human history and science.

    Interesting to note also, many States (North Carolina as late as 1974,) had Eugenics laws side-by-side with official and de facto prohibitions on teaching Evolution in Government Schools.

    Imagine, had the journals (or whatever functioned as such) in Mendel’s day quashed his ideas, six million Jews might have been spared!

    No, it would just have meant Jews and everyone else could have died of starvation, malnurition, disease, or inherited conditions, on top of wars, pogroms, persecutions, and The Holocaust.

    #44397

    Autumn
    Participant

    Davis,

    Wokeness is a snarl word that some people use to blanket criticise people who work towards making life bearable to those who face endless racism, sexism, homophobia, discrimination because of disability and countless other things that make one marginalised. The world, and my own life, is immensely better and more bearable, because of people who stand up for treating others with dignity, chipping away at biggotry, discrimination, passive indifference to suffering and those who try to pretend that we live in a post-racist, post-sexist, post-homophobic world.

    You mean Woke people like this guy? James Wong on gardens Is it time we ditched the word ‘gardening’? The term might seem inoffensive, but it’s loaded with cultural baggage https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/aug/28/james-wong-on-gardening-is-it-time-we-ditched-the-word-gardening- And not even a word of rational explanation why.

    It’s explained in the article. There is also nothing woke about it. He’s saying there has been a shift in language especially with younger generations such that ‘gardening’ has either fallen out of favour, or taken on unattractive overtones. Given his view of the importance of gardening and his perception that the activity is in decline, a shift in how people talk about horticulture may reconcile a gap between younger people and their local horticulture culture (or something to that general effect).

    Is he correct? Who can say? The article isn’t well supported, but neither is it woke.

    #44399

    Unseen
    Participant

    Racism, Tribalism, Eugenics, Conquest, Imperialism, and Anti-Semitism all existed prior to both Darwin’s Theory of Evolution and Gregor Mendel’s first studies of Genetics. Even when these evils happened after these discoveries in science, it all happened before the more thorough understanding brought by Watson and Crick’s discovery of DNA and the mapping of The Human Genome. So there is definitely no correlation between these evils of human history and science. Interesting to note also, many States (North Carolina as late as 1974,) had Eugenics laws side-by-side with official and de facto prohibitions on teaching Evolution in Government Schools.

    Don’t be a fool. Where there’s a will there’s a way. Even DNA research can be used to support racist notions.

    (Quashing Mendel’s ideas) would just have meant Jews and everyone else could have died of starvation, malnurition, disease, or inherited conditions, on top of wars, pogroms, persecutions, and The Holocaust.

    I’m searching my mind for the name of the fallacy evidenced here, but basically, it’s a false comparison fallacy consisting of comparing what’s real, factual, and evident with something that doesn’t exist and can’t be supported with facts/evidence.

    #44400

    Unseen
    Participant

    The problem with off-the-hinge wokeness is that much of it is a sideshow when we have many actually important things to worry about. Certainly there are some things we could be more aware of and sensitive to but what bothers many people is how petty and ultimately irrelevant some of it is. When the resent or ridicule wokeness, that is the stuff they are talking about.

    Gardens? Come on. If we have to take a hard look at “gardening,” what’s next? Taking a hard look at the word “science”? I’m pretty sure some crazy woke person is already working on reasons for not using that word anymore when, in fact, the world might be a better place if the current usage of “woke” disappeared overnight.

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