Sunday School

Sunday School July 24th 2022

This topic contains 39 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by  jakelafort 2 weeks ago.

Viewing 10 posts - 31 through 40 (of 40 total)
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  • #43882

    Strega
    Moderator

    Robert I know! On the plus side, your projection depends on humans still existing in enough numbers to share that opinion.

    #43883

    Unseen
    Participant

    Who’s immoral now (lighter, closer to yellow, is worse):

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #43885

    Strega
    Moderator

    Ha! Unseen.

    All of us, by the looks of your map. But not Iceland. Iceland has the moral high ground 🙂

    #43886

    Autumn
    Participant

    In Canada, transportation and energy production are major issues. If we increased our population dramatically, our overall footprint would go up, but our per capita figure would almost certainly go down.

    The bigger issue to my mind is that our culture was founded out of a sense of entitlement and exploitation where natural resources are concerned.  With historically small populations, certain resources might have seemed indefinitely harvestable. Certain behaviours would have seemed entirely reasonable.

    And we perpetuate certain beliefs that have long since stopped being true. Canada has a high carbon footprint (it doesn’t actually matter if you go per capita or just look at the total—we suck either way). Occasionally, this is rationalized with the belief that our massive forests more than offset our emissions. Problem is, that’s probably not true. Due to forest fires and insect infestations, mass tree deaths may be releasing more carbon into the atmosphere than forests are capturing. So that’s fun.

    We have to change the way we live. Collectively, we could substantially reduce our impact. But we lack means for that level of collective change. It’s very difficult to cement the notion that custodianship of our environment is not only of joint interest, but also joint necessity and joint responsibility to the point that it overrides certain private interests. People want to make it about ‘freedom’ but it’s not the government that dictates necessity for change here; it’s physics.

    #43887

    Unseen
    Participant

    Ha! Unseen. All of us, by the looks of your map. But not Iceland. Iceland has the moral high ground 🙂

    I think Iceland caught a break by having ample geothermal energy that most people can tap into by drilling a deep hole. Without that accident of geogrsphy, they’d almost certainly join the energy waste club with the rest of us.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  Unseen.
    #43889

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Robert of Florida: Says he…The issue is clouded when we use historical records to conclude that morality is dependent on contemporary mores. It was ok for Whites to enslave Blacks cuz that is how it was.

    It’s too easy. You can’t go back in time. They probably believed slavery was essential for their very survival, to put food on the table.

    In 100 years, they may view us as we live today as the most immoral people ever, much worse than slavers. We continue to drive our cars and use petrol to condition our indoor spaces, strip mine, use and discard plastics, to fly our jets, use animals for our pleasure, feed and then slaughter animals and eat tons of meat, burn forests, practice industrial monoculture, chemical farming…knowing that the Earth is fast becoming uninhabitable for future generations.

    What is morality without universality? If there are no standards that are applicable then, now and in the future is the notion of morality anything more than chimerical?

    The march of folly sees the progression of science and technology while morality stagnates. I know there are a few developments in secular nations that speak against the general tenor of human behavior. On the other hand the same selfish, myopic and vicious might makes right is as applicable now as it was when Machiavelli was alive.

    I have often written and said that in unlikely event civilization continues a few generations they will indeed look at us as we look at past transgressors. So, no, morality is not relative to era, although it is often judged in that way and if we give a pass to past atrocities using a rationale such as we were just following orders, everybody at that time was behaving in that way then custom and practice determines morality and morality is a meaningless concept.

    #43891

    Unseen
    Participant

    @jake

    Ethics are either relative in some respect, or else they are based on an absolute (Platonic ideal? Edict from the Godhead?). I am unaware of any third possibility.

    If they are legislated, that is just a form of relativism. The legislature just chose what to sanctify according to their beliefs, whims, and/or prejudices.

    If you’re not into relativism, then, whence come your absolutes?

    #43892

    Strega
    Moderator

    I found that transportation point interesting. If you look at the UK for example, the area to cover is quite small and they have a lot of public transport that is heavily used – added to the fact that European cars do over 40mpg, would lead you to believe that without the footprint savings on transport, they’re much worse.

    Then you remember that almost everyone in the UK has a passport and flies or has flown on vacation. The fuel usage for a flight is very high for takeoff and landing, and less so during cruising altitude. Heathrow is a hub – the take off and landing slots are 90 seconds apart. How is the massive fuel use allocated?  It’s an enormous part of the Uk travel industry. If a German takes an American Airlines flight via London and on to Amsterdam, how is the fuel allocation calculated?

    So I think Unseens map is probably indicative rather than accurate.

    #43896

    Autumn
    Participant

    https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/murray-sinclair-pope-apology-1.6532525

    Sinclair said it’s important to highlight that the Catholic Church was not just an agent of the state, but “a lead co-author of the darkest chapters in the history of the land.”

    Sinclair says Catholic leaders who were driven by the Doctrine of Discovery — a 15th-century papal edict that justified colonial expansion by allowing Europeans to claim Indigenous lands as their own — as well as other church beliefs and policies enabled the government of Canada, and pushed it further in its work to commit what the TRC called the cultural genocide carried out on Indigenous people in Canada.

    That was often “not just a collaboration, but an instigation,” he said.

    “There are clear examples in our history where the church called for the government of Canada to be more aggressive and bold in its work to destroy Indigenous culture, traditional practices and beliefs,” Sinclair’s statement said.

    “It was more than the work of a few bad actors — this was a concerted institutional effort to remove children from their families and cultures, all in the name of Christian supremacy.”

    #43900

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Unseen i don’t know if it is an absolute or relative. Well it is not an absolute, no. Temporal relativity is what i am not accepting. I am referring to the most vial, brutal inhumane (oxymoronic term) cruel conduct or behavior-it is the kind where the exploitation is shameless and beyond redemption.

    I am not a philosopher. So i have not given a lot of the mundane philosophical issues a lot of thought. Law is definitely not an absolute source of morality-often just the opposite. Law reflects the moneyed or powerful interests of a nation.

    Morality is for me an evolutionary adaptation utilizing reason, compassion and empathy. It requires judgment. Probably very childish on my part. I think ideology in the form of political and religious expression often subverts or sublimates innate decency. The ideology preempts what would otherwise emerge to decide moral issues. I aint giving a pass though cuz others were slave holders or were participating in genocides or whatever. That may be the cause in fact of the bad behavior but it does not make it moral

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