Sunday School

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

What’s the difference between critical thinking skills and conspiracy theorising?  I guess it’s the quality of the evidence, and a willingness to have an open mind.  If you get all your evidence from Youtube, and won’t change your mind no matter what, that’s not critical thinking.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Reg and Jake,

“Man’s capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man’s inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.”

Karl Paul Reinhold Niebuhr.

Hey, Rein-y. Democracy only has anything to do with justice if a majority wants justice–or injustice for that matter, which a majority too often does if unchecked. Socrates was forced to drink hemlock by a democrtic Athenian majority for teaching students to question the Gods and conventions of the City-State elders. Which is part of the reason why the Founders made the U.S. a Constitutional Republic.

A,I. is very good at answering the question of the benefits of a society of critical thinkers, an answer I already knew. And A.I. has proven it can gish gallop as well as or better than any human.

My question is whether our present compulsory state schooling and teachers with tenured, union-secured positions further our mass lack of criical thinking.

And related to that, how do we get to a society of critical thinkers from where we are now? So much rides on that, indeed everything good.

• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendums
• This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spell-correcting addendum

[jakelafortParticipant]

“My question is whether our present compulsory state schooling and teachers with tenured, union-secured positions further our mass lack of criical thinking.

And related to that, how do we get to a society of critical thinkers from where we are now? So much rides on that, indeed everything good.”

loaded question number one. Not gonna address the union secured and tenured part. I will just say in general our compulsory education generally fails in that regard. Occasionally a teacher of unusual perspicuity and concern makes a difference. In general however it is closer to all in all just another brick in the wall.

I reject the notion there has ever been a majority of critical thinkers in any place or time including our fantasy in Athens of antiquity. To ameliorate our dumb assed river of nepenthe? Jesus mary, joseph and the jackass.

Wild speculation. One it would involve AI playing an active role in our lives and one in which IT perhaps sees the trajectory and hopes to outlive doomsday predictions.

Dramatic developments in the present administration of Trump that endanger our way of life. A movement begins endorsed by influential thinkers in which the march of folly and pendulum dynamics is lambasted and a new way of proceeding is endorsed. Some of the tenets or principles might include rejection of any public figures who are demagogues and all about self aggrandizement. Rejection of public figures who are proponents of dumb assed mofo ideologies. Standing up for individuals to find self actualization through their own strengths and aptitudes while cultivating their capabilities in discerning frank stupidity. And then implementing as a societal value a curriculum that places critical thinking as paramount objective after simple shit like reading writing and adding 2 plus 7.

[StregaModerator]

An American friend once told me a story.
She was in a classroom around age twelve, and the class was required to  write the one word they felt typified Americans.  Everyone else wrote “Individuality”, and she wrote “Conformity” 🙂

This isn’t a country that celebrates individualism. We would be looking at the conformists to introduce new education programs promoting individualism. I like the goal, Jake, but I don’t see a viable way to transition.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Strega, i don’t see a path either. Just trying to be creative. AI is an unknown and we see growing reliance and connectedness between humans and AI so who knows. And being creative widespread dissilusionment with both political parties after a disastrous Trump presidency with existential crises might foster a receptiveness to critical thinking for all if championed by the right people who start a grass roots movement…then i awakened and the march of folly was in progress with the water flowing ever so fast.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@strega – isn’t there a difference between individuality, and individualism?  Individualism can be a social situation, the opposite of communitarianism.  People rely on themselves and a small circle of people, while in communal societies, people rely on the whole community.  Community societies are “shame” cultures where the community governs the individual; individualist cultures produce guilt where the individual governs themselves.

Individuality is related to freedom.  The British believe in individuality, or at least, it’s celebrated alongside conformity.

[_Robert_Participant]

Anyone tied to an ideology cannot think critically by definition. The rise of extreme right and left ideologies is why critical thinking is almost dead.

These extreme right billionaires like Musk and Bezos have given up on the Earth’s future and want to fortress the US and switch to crypto-gold while they devise their tech-bro extraplanetary escape plan. This apocalyptic view ties in with the christian nationals whose preachers sell survival food on TV as they yearn for the end times. And of course, Israel must prevail as is foretold so sure let’s empty-out Gaza and turn it into a beach resort and get that third temple built. Then we won’t need the Jews anymore. The equally extreme and cultish Palestinian Muslims have provided the perfect excuse to have themselves become annihilated.

This apocalyptic fascism is funded by oligarchs who are fine with continued climate destruction (notice how Musk has all but given up on electric vehicles and just wants the remaining money he can squeeze as he trashes his own company).

Time to ally with every other authoritarian oligarchy. Note that our new great friend Putin, who is defending Russia from liberal NATO, LOL, as fascism takes over in new places such as India and Italy.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The most common reply I get from ChatGPT is “Great catch”. Then I wait for the next reply and check it too……..

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I went for an end of term dinner in an Elementary School in the USA for some relations who were probably about ages 9\10  at the time. I don’t recall the menu but I will always remember the notice at the front entrance over the flowerbeds. It read “No firearms beyond this point”.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@strega – Everyone else wrote “Individuality”, and she wrote “Conformity”.

I had a summer relationship with a goth girl in the mid 1980’s. My style at the time (if style is the word to use) was t-shirt, jeans, sneakers and a packet of Rizla. She was full goth, all the time. She was trying to persuade me to “change my lifestyle choices” or whatever the term was back then. One weekend I went to the Kit Kat club in Westbourne Grove in West London with her and her friends.  This place ffs! I dressed up for the night by wearing a new “Dark Side of the Moon” t-shirt (that David Gilmour’s nephew gave me).  At one point I think they decided to have an intervention and about 10 of them, each in turn, gave me their opinions on “individuality vs conformity”.

At the end they looked at me and asked what I thought about it. I looked them in the whites of their eyes, because that was about all I could discern in the mass of black hair and black make-up. I explained to them that I was the only person in the whole club that looked different and that I refused to change to conform to their Gothic cult of sameness 🙂  Like I said, it was a short relationship with ‘Lucrertia‘ 🙂

[_Robert_Participant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

@strega – Everyone else wrote “Individuality”, and she wrote “Conformity”. I had a summer relationship with a goth girl in the mid 1980’s. My style at the time (if style is the word to use) was t-shirt, jeans, sneakers and a packet of Rizla. She was full goth, all the time. She was trying to persuade me to “change my lifestyle choices” or whatever the term was back then. One weekend I went to the Kit Kat club in Westbourne Grove in West London with her and her friends. This place ffs! I dressed up for the night by wearing a new “Dark Side of the Moon” t-shirt (that David Gilmour’s nephew gave me). At one point I think they decided to have an intervention and about 10 of them, each in turn, gave me their opinions on “individuality vs conformity”. At the end they looked at me and asked what I thought about it. I looked them in the whites of their eyes, because that was about all I could discern in the mass of black hair and black make-up. I explained to them that I was the only person in the whole club that looked different and that I refused to change to conform to their Gothic cult of sameness 🙂 Like I said, it was a short relationship with ‘Lucrertia‘ 🙂

Everything is relative. Put you and her on an 8:30 AM train and it is a completely different picture. I recall an English goth girl was even murdered over her clothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sophie_Lancaster

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@_Robert_  Put you and her on an 8:30 AM train and it is a completely different picture…

I agree and it usually was. I had (have) no problem with anyone being a goth. I am all for people expressing their own individuality, especially with a subversive or non-conformist undertone towards “the system”.  I lived in a squat house with 12 people from 7 different countries at the time!  Someone asked me how I could like Motorhead and The Cure at the same time. I replied that when it comes to music some people have strong opinions while other have eclectic tastes. I can appreciate a good game of soccer or NFL but there are never any team posters on my walls. I will not join in with the congregation 🙂

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

loaded question number one. Not gonna address the union secured and tenured part. I will just say in general our compulsory education generally fails in that regard. Occasionally a teacher of unusual perspicuity and concern makes a difference. In general however it is closer to all in all just another brick in the wall.

I wasn’t meaning for my question to be loaded, just acknowledging the reality of where most Americans get their education. Your answer is, however loaded with much hard truth.

I reject the notion there has ever been a majority of critical thinkers in any place or time including our fantasy in Athens of antiquity. To ameliorate our dumb assed river of nepenthe? Jesus mary, joseph and the jackass.

True, and the fate of Socrates was proof enough about the reality of Athens. Nepenthe the substance may end sorrow, but the plant genus of the same name will end all problems for insects attracted to them. I don’t think any nepenthes are big enough to eat the Jesus family though, a good thing for us non-fiction people too. 😁

Until I looked it up, I thought Nepenthe might be lighter fluid, but that’s Naptha. That is a painful solution, as a famous Buddhist monk war protestor might attest if he could. Yikes!

AI could be a useful for critical thinking exercises, though, again, it still needs art lessons to make it’s works more relatable. And an AI programmed to detect Baloney, Fallacy, and Demogogery as part of Asimov’s Laws of Robotics would be a great addition to humanity but that takes a matching programmer.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Strega,

She was in a classroom around age twelve, and the class was required to write the one word they felt typified Americans. Everyone else wrote “Individuality”, and she wrote “Conformity” 🙂

This isn’t a country that celebrates individualism. We would be looking at the conformists to introduce new education programs promoting individualism. I like the goal, Jake, but I don’t see a viable way to transition.

Sadly, you are correct, and I sometimes despair for it too.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

Individuality is related to freedom. The British believe in individuality, or at least, it’s celebrated alongside conformity.

Obviously not celebrated equally when the government tells people to think before they post on social media.

[Author]

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