Sunday School

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

I’ll say one thing about “woke”. Before it went all wrong on HAMAS, it did shine a light on the millions of racist roaches hiding in dark places. And many of the assumptions even liberals held in their heads. Old movies started making me cringe. I questioned how my life experience was so different from so many fellow Americans.

Anyone with two neurons to fire has always known that Racism, Xenophobia, Sexism, Homophobia, Antisemitism, and plain ol’ bigotry has existed throughout human history long before someone put the word “Woke” to that knowledge. Hamas is just the latest hip, hummus-flavored version of Man’s inhumanity to Man.

Adherents of “Wokeism” just claims this knowledge is their exclusive revelation, demand sacrifice of everyone regardless of guilt, and claim sanctimony for doing so.

“Wokeism” is just the modern version of “Concerned Citizen”-ism or “Clergy and Laity Concerned” as if no one else is concerned or has solutions.

Since Trump came to power, I have seen video after video of emboldened Boomers and Gen X who feel that racist power on their side. They just come out and say what they feel. Exposed for what they really are.

Trump, Biden, and for that matter Bernie Sanders, Mith McConnell, Nancy Lugosi, and a lot of other fossils in DC are pre-Boomers. And a lot of Alt-Righters and Antifa are post-Gen-Xers. Time doesn’t heal all wounds and youth are just more spritely fanatics with the added feature of no sense of history for perspective.

Yes, I am upset at the extreme left and at the Dems for losing the populace. For dismissing and dissing all young white males living in basements and their mothers who vote. For letting the worst of the worst rule over the land.

You should be upset. “Wokeism” hasn’t made people respect each other or brought freedom, justice, unity, or peace. It’s just revived and mimicked all that it claims to despise.

[_Robert_Participant]

France has done a good job with their small nuke plants plus solar/wind/hydro. They only use fossil fuel for 6% of their electricity and are net exporters. They have to do tons of repairs and maintenance of their reactors. Stress fractures of the cooling systems are always happening.

I swear I don’t trust Americans with dangerous tech anymore. Can’t keep air traffic control systems running. Can’t even get through a week without a school shooting.

[_Robert_Participant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Robert,

I’ll say one thing about “woke”. Before it went all wrong on HAMAS, it did shine a light on the millions of racist roaches hiding in dark places. And many of the assumptions even liberals held in their heads. Old movies started making me cringe. I questioned how my life experience was so different from so many fellow Americans.

Anyone with two neurons to fire has always known that Racism, Xenophobia, Sexism, Homophobia, Antisemitism, and plain ol’ bigotry has existed throughout human history long before someone put the word “Woke” to that knowledge.

Actually, no, I still don’t think white guys really know what it like to be a black guy with all the racism around. That was the idea of being ‘woke’. To have empathy at least.  Guess what? It worked. Gen Z and later IS woke. When my racists-as-fuck boomers and gen x cohorts are all dead; it is gonna be very different.

And so now boomers are erasing history from the teaching agendas and emptying libraries. Fucking pieces of shit.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

That was the idea of being ‘woke’. To have empathy at least. Guess what? It worked. Gen Z and later IS woke. When my racists-as-fuck boomers and gen x cohorts are all dead; it is gonna be very different.

I agree, after wokeness hit us, everything is better in many respects.  People feel more included and there is less unkindness around towards identities.  I complain about the toxic side, but now that that seems to be fading away a bit, we are left with the beneficial effects.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

Actually, no, I still don’t think white guys really know what it like to be a black guy with all the racism around. That was the idea of being ‘woke’. To have empathy at least. Guess what? It worked. Gen Z and later IS woke. When my racists-as-fuck boomers and gen x cohorts are all dead; it is gonna be very different.

And so now boomers are erasing history from the teaching agendas and emptying libraries. Fucking pieces of shit.

Here’s where you’re showing a lack of history. Boomers and The Greatest Generation were the ones who brought us the Civil Rights Movement. Gen-X added LGBT Rights into the mix.

The younger generations who don’t even have an agreed-on name have segregated clubs, dorms, and graduations on campuses, as well as the present Antisemitic pogroms in the Ivy Leagues. That is what “Woke” hath wrought.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

France has done a good job with their small nuke plants plus solar/wind/hydro. They only use fossil fuel for 6% of their electricity and are net exporters. They have to do tons of repairs and maintenance of their reactors. Stress fractures of the cooling systems are always happening.

I swear I don’t trust Americans with dangerous tech anymore. Can’t keep air traffic control systems running. Can’t even get through a week without a school shooting.

All energy sources have dangers and nuclear energy has the least and more managable of all of them. The one and only nuclear power accident in the United States, Three Mile Island, had no loss of life or even injuries. Chernobyl didn’t have the shielding of power plants in the U.S. and with the reactor in Fukashima, the culprit was an earthquake, with only one death from radition and 24 non-fatal injuries.

To get a full idea of risks, we need to apply The Precautionary Principle to what we don’t do as well as what we do. The risks of not using nuclear energy or natural gas is shortage of power for everything in our civilization.

(Note on the 2021 blackout in Texas: The failure to winterize equipment to deliver natural gas and the power it generates was the cause. Fortunately, everything needed to winterize e.g. fuel treatment, lubrication, antifreeze, insulation, derives from and is produced by petrochemicals. So, the lesson here is to winterize and keep drilling and fracking to do so.)

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Assuming religious people are more moral than atheists without evidence is a conjunction fallacy driven by representativeness, not actual probability. Further reading here.

The “further reading” article is interesting.  Apparently, religious people don’t trust atheists because they think we’re rebellious and disobedient.  That’s a major reason why atheists don’t trust religious people – we think they’re easily led.  American Christians think atheists are:

‘rebellious’, ‘opinionated’, ‘individualistic’, ‘hard-hearted’, ‘prejudiced’, ‘confrontational’

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Simon, I would be opinionated and confrontational. My opinions are “strong” but they are loosely held. I am open to changing them if and when I am persuaded to do so. For me there is no such thing as negative feedback. I am not looking for a pat on the back for holding them. I have no allegiance to them and will discard them whenever I am presented with a valid reason to either update them or completely discard them and start again.

Yes, theists think I am hard-hearted at times. But only because I won’t agree with them. My opinions are not entangled with emotions like theirs are. I find they are generally very ‘prejudiced’. This is because they have not been able to challenge what they believe or why they believe it.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Yes, theists think I am hard-hearted at times.

From the second paper:

Christians’ negative impressions drew primarily from the Authority foundation, and both groups drew heavily from the Care foundation in both their positive and negative depictions.

In human moral psychology, immorality is perceived as physically harmful in some way.  One thing that Christians think about atheists (so the stereotype goes) is that since we don’t have God, we don’t have a moral compass.  (That stereotype is basically the reason why I wrote my book: to find out how to prove them wrong.)  So, if we don’t have a moral compass, we must literally be harming people: we must be hard-hearted.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@simon – In many cultures, morality is subconsciously equated with the prevention of harm. When someone is perceived as “immoral,” they’re often assumed to be capable of causing harm, either emotionally, physically, or spiritually. In moral psychology harm/care is one of the foundational pillars of moral judgment. Moral Foundations Theory covers this in detail.
Your point about Christians and the stereotype of atheists lacking a moral compass is a bugbear of mine. Below is an answer edited by ChatGPT of some notes of mine from previous debates or general discussions.

The Chain of Thought behind the Stereotype:

1. God is the Source of Morality (in many theistic worldviews):
If morality comes from God, then to reject God is to reject morality.
2. Atheists Reject God:
Therefore, they must be rejecting the source of morality.
3. Conclusion (however faulty):
Atheists are morally adrift → They must be more prone to immoral behavior → They are likely to cause harm.
4. Moral Psychology Link:
Since immorality is psychologically equated with harm, atheists are stereotyped as cold, hard-hearted, even dangerous.

This is why you’ll often hear things like, “Without God, what’s to stop you from murdering someone?” – a statement not of logic, but of moral panic.

The Cognitive Bias at Play:
The stereotype of atheists as immoral isn’t grounded in evidence. It’s a cognitive shortcut—a kind of moral heuristic. Here’s how it operates:
• Humans evolved to detect threats in others: those who cheat, steal, or harm.
• When someone doesn’t conform to the group’s moral norms (in this case, religious belief), our brains flag them as risky.
• That “risk” is translated into perceived harm.
• Result? Atheists are not just “wrong,” they’re “dangerous.”

Research says otherwise

Empirical studies consistently show that:
• Atheists are just as likely to act ethically as believers.
• In highly secular societies (e.g. Scandinavia), levels of well-being, social trust, and low crime are among the best in the world.
• Morality can and does emerge from evolutionary, cultural, and rational processes—without needing God as a source.

And yet the stereotype persists, because it’s emotional, not rational. I find the religious basis for morality to be weak. “You should not take your moral code in tablet form” as Hitchens said. Instead it should be an ongoing lifelong discussion (a discussion worth having) with the aim of improving oneself to be more ethical in our dealings with other people (and animals). Reciting archaic laws by rote leads to monotonous thinking (brain rot) and a paucity of “good deeds”. Here are some excellent standards for theists to read that might give them an insight into how many atheists “think”.

• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer. Reason: added url link

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

• When someone doesn’t conform to the group’s moral norms (in this case, religious belief), our brains flag them as risky.

• That “risk” is translated into perceived harm.

• Result? Atheists are not just “wrong,” they’re “dangerous.”

That makes sense.  I’d never thought of it that way.  On that basis, there’s a very valid fear that we might do anything, including immoral and harmful things.

We can say that morality is the regulation of collaboration and its goals.  Collaboration and ethical goals are to mutual benefit.  That’s literally what it is, and so, human beings can’t avoid a need for it, because so much of their activity has to be collaborative.

The Theory of Dyadic Morality states the empirical finding that humans perceive immorality as physically harmful (in some way, any way, it doesn’t have to make sense).

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Your point about Christians and the stereotype of atheists lacking a moral compass is a bugbear of mine.

Our motivation to be moral is the same as that of Christians: i.e., 1) conscience – the motive to follow moral and ethical principles; 2) consequences of our actions for ourselves and others.

[_Robert_Participant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Your point about Christians and the stereotype of atheists lacking a moral compass is a bugbear of mine.

Our motivation to be moral is the same as that of Christians: i.e., 1) conscience – the motive to follow moral and ethical principles; 2) consequences of our actions for ourselves and others.

Simon, isn’t the main point of Christianity to evade responsibility for immoral behavior? No matter what you do, just believe and you will be OK. That’s why Jesus lives mostly in prisons. It’s why evangelical preachers do the shittiest things…and then often issue a statement and then just get on with the grifting.

Look at history. The main focus Christian policy has been to invade, conquer and dominate. Kill Jews and Muslims, kill all conquered natives. Kill each other, WWI, WWII. Just the same as the “evil” pagans did. Heavy endorsement of death penalty and unwarranted wars. Where is the forgiveness and morality. Seems more like a get out of jail card to me.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

_Robert_ wrote:

Simon, isn’t the main point of Christianity to evade responsibility for immoral behavior? No matter what you do, just believe and you will be OK. That’s why Jesus lives mostly in prisons. It’s why evangelical preachers do the shittiest things…and then often issue a statement and then just get on with the grifting.

It’s not news that the devout can easily make excuses for any bad behaviour.  That’s not moral accountability, it’s evasion and hypocrisy.  But when they do moral and ethical behaviour well, they do it as well as or better than anyone else.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

@simon – But when they do moral and ethical behavior well, they do it as well as or better than anyone else.

The Hitchens Challenge;

“Name one moral action performed by a believer that could not have been done by a nonbeliever.”

[Author]

Posts