Sunday School

Sunday School November 13th 2022

This topic contains 117 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 1 week, 1 day ago.

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  • #45617

    Here’s how atheist candidates fared in the 2022 elections.

    Astute political analyst Michele Bachmann knows there was a steal but does not know how it was done. That’s an easy one. It was Demons! GOP Jesus is not happy about it!

    FFRF salutes “atheists in foxholes” on Veterans Day.

    A theist in Turkey is unable to pray to the creator of the Universe when the wheels on the bus are going round and round.

    A Cardinal in the Vatican has decided to take time out to do nothing after admitting to being involved in Catholic crimes against humanity.

    MPs in the UK call for a national plan for religious  education.

    World of Woo: Substandard and falsified medicines are a global threat.

    Environment: What can COP27 accomplish as inflation and energy prices soar? Humanity has a monumental task ahead.

    How can you reason with a young-Earth creationist?

    Does education ‘cure’ people of faith? The data says no.

    Atheists are stereotyped as immoral and usually by Christian terrorists. So where does our morality come from then?

    The 7 oldest Religions in the World.  The first line in that article is wrong. We are not religious by nature. We engage in magical thinking until we learn to think critically with the faculty of Reason. Religious beliefs are just a subset of magical thinking and that is widespread.

    Researchers claim to have solved the mystery of how all life on Earth began while a supernova in distant space allows us to understand the origin of the elements in the universe.

    Testing Einstein’s theory of gravity on the scale of the universe.

    God Hates Forks!

    Give and Take – ‘To receive from kings,’ the Mahabharata tells us, ‘is at first honey, at the end, poison.’

    Long Reads: Developers of AI no longer fully understand how it works but will AI consider itself sentient in its own AI reality? The North Pole: One of Earth’s last ‘un-owned’ lands. Animals dream too—here’s what we know. What was Ethical Consumption under Capitalism? God needs you to give money to his Liars for Jesus. Human exceptionalism imposes horrible costs on other animals.

    Sunday Book Club: Fads, Fakes, and Frauds.

    Some photographs taken last week and some from Kherson.

    While you are waiting for the kettle to boil……

    Coffee Break Video:  The cost of being an atheist in Nigeria. Two-Faced Talking Points with Betty Bowers. Mormon church accused of ripping off taxpayers by millions of dollars. Dances with whales.

    #45619

    Have a great week everyone!

    #45620

    Strega
    Moderator

    Thanks, Reg!!

    #45621

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    So where does our morality come from then?

    I was having a conversation with a Christian guy recently on the William Lane Craig Facebook page.  He was saying, if your morality isn’t objective, then how can you justify imposing it on other people?  I was saying, I don’t.  This was in the context of the recent overturning of Roe vs. Wade.  He said, how can you justify imposing your morality onto unborn children?  Which I admit, I couldn’t answer right off.

    #45622

    Strega
    Moderator

    @simon. Unborn children are like undead adults. They’re an invention.

    But let’s pretend a fetus has fully working organs, brains and let’s go overboard here, a way of communicating with the outside world.

    In whose world does a human being get to leech off another human being without the leechee giving permission?  You’ve got a rare blood disorder. I need your blood to survive. Can I just clamp a cannula on your arm and suck away for most of a year without your consent?

    Unborn baby is an invention to try to attach pseudo-objective emotion.

    But let’s say that’s ok. The clump of cells has the right to live because of its future state of babyhood and on to adulthood. Mind if I call you an undead human?  No?  What about I treat you as if you were dead, because that’s where you’ll get to be anyway. No need for food, you can just lie still in a cheap coffin. You’re almost dead anyway.

    And here’s the cherry on the insanity pie. A corpse, a dead person, cannot have its organs harvested or even it’s blood drawn unless the person when alive, or their next of kin permits it.

    So here we are, in 2022, where a corpse has more bodily autonomy than a living human woman.

    Simon if you had trouble answering your Christian, it’s because you weren’t thinking clearly. You can do so much better.

    #45623

    So here we are, in 2022, where a corpse has more bodily autonomy than a living human woman.

    That is a great way of summarizing it!

    #45624

    jakelafort
    Participant

    William Lane Craig? Professional charlatan. Professional sophist.

    Morals are absolute. You atheists mofos are dangerous cuz your morals do not come from on high. You v. God the lawgiver. Goddamn blashpheming heathen ought to burn in hell for all eternity. Now get on your knees bitch and take that Jesus cookie. I give you absolute Jesus cookies that are infinitely better than Famous Amos.

    If morals are absolute and objectivity is borne of a fictional originator that is a fucking shame cuz your morality is typically an accident of your birth. Decisions about morality are foisted on small children before their minds have matured and they can make informed decisions about morality. There is no distinguishing between the fictional lawgivers. Take it on faith. Init coincidental how the morality is a reflection of the power structure? It is also coincidental how power structures favor the powerful and inure to the detriment of the disenfranchised, marginilized or otherwise less powerful. Take your objective and absolute morality and sell it to the ignorant, and moronic masses.

    If your morality is absolute and all abortion is murder then masturbation is arguably genocide for a man. There are no distinctions to be made between a 12 yr. old girl raped by her dad and a 34 year old who did not want a child and neglected to use protection. Absurd and insupportable results when all pregnant women are treated the same. You won’t get such monstrous absurdities if you use your mind instead of having your mind decided for you.

    Oh and it is okay to impose your morality on the already living without assistance autonomous woman and the scared as shit potential father. Having a hard and fast intractable rule on murder creates other impositions. But you don’t care as a William Craig puppet because you feel secure in your abdication of decision making to your mass fantasy. No, morality requires our JUDGMENT.

    #45625

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Unborn baby is an invention to try to attach pseudo-objective emotion.

    You’re right – it’s not a baby, below a certain age, it’s just a lump of stuff.  “Unborn child” or “unborn baby” is an emotionally loaded term designed to elicit undue alarm for a termination.

    I didn’t want to get into debating abortion with a right-wing evangelist – their dog-whistles and alarms start going off, and you can’t get much sense out of them.  I wanted to keep the discussion on morality.  However, end of discussion it was.

    #45626

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    No, morality requires our JUDGMENT.

    I don’t think that’s necessarily the problem.  I find that people like WLC do use judgment and discrimination like anyone else.  I think the real problem is elevating certain principles, like anti-abortionism, absurdly above others, like simple benefit and harm and human dignity.

    #45627

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Simon, if the alternative to using our judgment is by fiat then morality is arbitrary. Craig wants to impose his arbitrary morality on all of us. You may perceive discrimination and judgment in certain instances. It is virtually impossible to avoid those human tendencies.

    But that misses the point. Those assholes get all fire and brimstone sanctimonious when it counts. And when they are in power it really counts. Abdicate your judgment and you are not fully human.

    #45628

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    And when they are in power it really counts.

    Since religion is patriarchal, I think that being anti-abortion is really about controlling women’s rights and their sexuality.

    Craig wants to impose his arbitrary morality on all of us.

    At least, the right wing.  Pro-choice people don’t try and impose abortion onto everyone, they don’t try and force people to have abortions just because they believe in being pro-choice.  The right wing evangelicals want to impose their anti-abortion morality onto all women.

    Abdicate your judgment and you are not fully human.

    Arguably, yes, they’re doing/voting the way their group wants them to.  The group-think is strong in that group, and it’s imposed.  That’s true.

    I guess if someone has a different set of values, then they’re not right wing, by definition.

    #45629

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    William Lane Craig? Professional charlatan. Professional sophist.

    He tends to have fixed views about things, yes.  But he’s a humane guy who tolerates different points of view.  I’ve been made a Top Fan a few times.  I respect him as a philosopher, or at least, his professionalism.

    The old chestnut is objective morality.  The moral argument for God runs that “my strongly held morals must be objective, therefore God exists”.  It’s a very weak argument.  But there’s loads of room for debate around it.

    #45630

    Strega
    Moderator

    @simon If morals were objective, they would be rules. It is precisely to handle things that ‘feel wrong’ but are within the rules, or ‘feel right’ but are against the rules, that morals are required.

    Murder is not immoral, for example.  It is illegal.

    Morality is the fluffy stuff that bridges the gap between what can be generalised into a rule, and what cannot.

    And that precise gap is always a matter of opinion.

    #45631

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    If morals were objective, they would be rules.

    But some values are so important, they’re as-if rules.  For example, care towards children; not committing rape; not causing unnecessary harm; sharing fairly with one’s collaborative partners; reciprocating a favour.

    Unnecessary murder, or murder out of cruelty and enjoyment, are surely both immoral and illegal.

    Morality is the fluffy stuff that bridges the gap between what can be generalised into a rule, and what cannot.

    That’s an interesting take.  I propose that morality is what arises when we seek to achieve goals jointly, and the kind of morality that generates, depends on the goals.  For example, patriarchy is a way of achieving the goal of reproduction, on men’s terms.  Cooperation is a way of achieving thriving and surviving jointly, and cooperative morality is the set of social “rules” (for want of a better word) that facilitate that.

    Apart from that, moral philosophy distinguishes between conventions (specific rules) and moral principles (general cooperative / sexual ideals).

    #45632

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    What I question is the whole premise that Theistic Morality is objective. Divine Command is nothing more than the Subjectivism of a nonexistent Supernatural being whose existence is established based on feelz.

    And according to Abrahamic legend, their God JHVH-1 punished Adam and Eve and, by inheritance all humanity afterwards, because Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. How can the words of such a Nihilistic God be a valid guide for anything?

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: AutoCorrect is a pain
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