The plus side of the establishment of Israel…

[TheEncogitationer]

Unseen,

Kyle’s video evidently triggered YouTube curators to make it “Age-Restricted” Before I could watch it.

Anyway, psychos attracted to positions with badges is pretty much a universal phenomenon if this is what is portrayed. It is a problem not unique to any nation and in and of itself, does not mean genocide.

Truth in advertising would require that Kyle’s channel be entitled Secular Talk That Sucks Up To Islamists.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling

[Unseen]

We Americans give lip service to supporting certain internationally-accepted basic rules of conduct in conflicts. Avoiding civilian casualties, no retributive or terroristic acts (no raping the enemy’s women, for example), no summary field executions, no kangaroo courts, no genocide, and no torture being among them. We expect each side to adhere to these restrictions even when the other side doesn’t.

And yet, so many of us give Israel a pass when they flout these rules with apparent official approval. Yes, the Jews suffered mightily during WW2 and perhaps they deserved to have a state of their own, even if it has turned out to be a disaster in terms of destabilizing the world. That should not, however, exempt them from being held to account for committing war crimes of their own.

Imagine if we had followed Israel’s template, and after 9/11 had laid waste to Saudi cities and killed ordinary Saudi citizens by the thousands. Not only would we have been committing war crimes, we’d have been debasing ourselves and would rightly have deserved international condemnation and  contempt.

From those leftist anti-semites at Amnesty International:

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests  

From that famous Jew-hating rag The New Yorker:

The Brutal Conditions Facing Palestinian Prisoners

From Truthout:

Report: Israeli Prisons Subject Palestinians to Constant Torture, “Revenge”

From ReliefWeb:

In Israeli army camps, Gazan detainees subjected to torture and degrading treatment [EN/AR]

From CNN:

Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

From the OP…remember 18 years have passed since the writing of the article and things have not been doing anything but getting worse….

18 years have also passed since Israel ceded control of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, led by President Mahmoud Abbas who is also 18 years into his 4-year term of office. The 18-year-old Palestinians who became 18-year-old Hamas terrorists last October had spent 18 years being indoctrinated by members of the Religion of Peace. Hamas leadership has spent 18 years stealing billions in humanitarian funding for Palestinian. My Iranian friend cannot ever go back to Iran to see her family. Not because she is an atheist or because her husband of 18 years is Irish. It is because he is Jewish. What a difference a day makes.

[Unseen]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

From the OP…remember 18 years have passed since the writing of the article and things have not been doing anything but getting worse…. 18 years have also passed since Israel ceded control of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, led by President Mahmoud Abbas who is also 18 years into his 4-year term of office. The 18-year-old Palestinians who became 18-year-old Hamas terrorists last October had spent 18 years being indoctrinated by members of the Religion of Peace. Hamas leadership has spent 18 years stealing billions in humanitarian funding for Palestinian. My Iranian friend cannot ever go back to Iran to see her family. Not because she is an atheist or because her husband of 18 years is Irish. It is because he is Jewish. What a difference a day makes.

So…are you pointing out that the creation of Israel has caused and/or inflamed a lot of the antisemitism we see today? I imagine that before the creation of Israel, a country forced on the Middle East by outsiders, she might have been able to return to Iran and even bring her husband along.

By the way, that link isn’t working for me.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

I don’t think the “Middle East” has had much of a say in the creation of its own borders.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Here is the link…..

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-18/ty-article-static/.premium/what-happened-on-oct-7/0000018e-c1b7-dc93-adce-eff753020000

 

[TheEncogitationer]

Unseen,

Did any of this talk about Israeli torture include links to the tortures committed by Hamas on October 7th, not to mention standard operating procedure in all of Israel’s neighbors?

After October 7th, a lot of the #MeToo and #BelieveAllWomen crowd suddenly switched hashtags to #IsraelWoreTheSkirtTooTight.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

So…are you pointing out that the creation of Israel has caused and/or inflamed a lot of the antisemitism we see today?

Jews were persecuted long before the creation of Israel.  Political Islam inflamed much of the antisemitism of the last few decades. Political Islam is better known by its regular name, Islam. Much of the rhetoric that inflames antisemitism in the West is caused by an ignorance of history. Iran is an antisemitic regime that cannot abide recent diplomatic efforts by Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalize relations. It’s leadership claims that it is every Muslim’s sacred duty to resist Israel.  Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza is an Iranian puppet and his role is to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible. The Iranian woman I know, and her two sisters, did not escape Iran because of Israel. They left because of threats from the Islamic morality police who raped and murdered some of their friends. Something Hamas is rather adept at.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Let’s see how long it takes before Israel is blamed for the helicopter crash in Iran today.

[Unseen]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Unseen, Did any of this talk about Israeli torture include links to the tortures committed by Hamas on October 7th, not to mention standard operating procedure in all of Israel’s neighbors? After October 7th, a lot of the #MeToo and #BelieveAllWomen crowd suddenly switched hashtags to #IsraelWoreTheSkirtTooTight.

Enco, you ignorant slut (SNL joke, in case you don’t get it), the rules governing warfare govern both sides and the horrors of one side don’t justify horrors by the other side.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Unseen.

[Unseen]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

So…are you pointing out that the creation of Israel has caused and/or inflamed a lot of the antisemitism we see today? Jews were persecuted long before the creation of Israel. Political Islam inflamed much of the antisemitism of the last few decades. Political Islam is better known by its regular name, Islam. Much of the rhetoric that inflames antisemitism in the West is caused by an ignorance of history. Iran is an antisemitic regime that cannot abide recent diplomatic efforts by Israel and Saudi Arabia to normalize relations. It’s leadership claims that it is every Muslim’s sacred duty to resist Israel. Sinwar, the leader of Hamas in Gaza is an Iranian puppet and his role is to kill as many Israeli citizens as possible. The Iranian woman I know, and her two sisters, did not escape Iran because of Israel. They left because of threats from the Islamic morality police who raped and murdered some of their friends. Something Hamas is rather adept at.

a) You didn’t answer my question: Were expatriate Iranians prohibited from returning to Israel if they had married a Jew before the creation of Israel?

b) Does the sad and terrible history of Jewish persecution in any way excuse the excesses of Israel and excuse them from following the accepted rules of war regarding sparing noncombatants and treating prisoners with basic humanity? I understand their desire for revenge, but revenge, like jealousy, is not a noble impulse.

Why does everyone think that if you point out something bad about Israel that you are totally ignorant of the history of Jewish persecution? When you do that, you’re allowing yourself to feel superior to the other due to the ignorance you imagine they are operating under, and you allow yourself to ignore their possible on point criticisms. You can criticize Israel’s conduct of the war on Hamas, note their flouting of the conventions governing the prosecution of war, and yet love the Jewish people.

[Unseen]

Reg the Fronkey Farmer wrote:

Let’s see how long it takes before Israel is blamed for the helicopter crash in Iran today.

So far, it’s being blamed on fog and flying in mountainous terrain. But even if Iran fabricates a lie and blames Israel, to the extent that it’s believable that would be due to past Israeli actions against highly-placed Iranians, Iranian scientists, diplomats, and others. It’s not like it’s out of the question.

But if they do lie about that, you seem to be implying that somehow that could justify Israel flouting the Geneva Conventions.

[Unseen]

Why have so many of you lost your senses and abandoned logic and empathy when it comes to this conflict? I’ve been called antisemitic (which should be contrary to our guidelines, moderators) whereas, while my points are based on logic and evidence, most of the contrary posts draw from a deep well of hatred for Muslims.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Unseen.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Why does everyone think that if you point out something bad about Israel that you are totally ignorant of the history of Jewish persecution?

No, I was not implying that pointing out any heavy-handed military behavior by the IDF implied an ignorance of the history of Jewish persecution. What I said was that much of the rhetoric that inflames antisemitism in the West is caused by an ignorance of history.

I have listened to several people here in Ireland and elsewhere discuss the conflict. Many here draw a parallel with the partitioning of Ireland and Palestine by the British and the victimization of Catholics in Northern Ireland with that of the Palestinians today.  Just this weekend we had the 50th anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings that killed 35 civilians. I grew up in the midst of this and I personally know both victims and perpetrators of terrorism.  I am friendly with the Palestinian family living a few doors up and I have enjoyed a meal of Sumaghiyyeh in their home after Ramadan. They were amused to hear that I like to eat potato latkes, cooked using space lasers, when I celebrate Hanukkah with my friends in Atlanta. Neither party has ever expressed any animosity about this. I guess it is because we are all secularists.  We can break bread together and discuss the conflict, knowing that we all understand that everyone has a valid viewpoint.

But when I hear Catholics and University protesters call for a “Homeland for Hamas”, I know they don’t have a fucking clue. They know nothing of terrorism or warfare. They are social media useful idiots. Their ignorance of history is what inflames antisemitism.

[Unseen]

@ Reg

I was not referring specifically to you. An undercurrent in the discussion of the others seems to be that I’m just ignorant of the long history of the persecution of Jews. I grew up with Jews. Have had many a Jewish friend along the way. Eaten at Jewish dinner tables, attended services in a local synagogue, had many Jewish doctors, and on and on. I’ve also defended the existence of the Holocaust to people expressing doubts. I’ve been an advocate for Jews on many occasions. And to be declared an antisemite for criticizing Israeli policies is pretty rich.

That is all a separate matter from the behavior of the Israeli government.

There should be no homeland for Hamas. One for  Palestinians is a different matter. Right now, the closest to that has been Gaza, but it has been under the thumb of Israel. And neither side, Israel or Palestinian leaders, seem to want a two-state solution.

The situation seems untenable to the point of impossibility. But that doesn’t excuse maintaining a practical genocide, a kind of concentration camp for prisoners, or the torture and murder of those prisoners contrary to the Geneva Contentions.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Unseen.

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