Sunday School

Sunday School 23rd May 2021

This topic contains 63 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 2 weeks, 4 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 64 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #37777

    _Robert_
    Participant

    If the distance from Earth to the Sun was 1 meter (3.28 feet), Alpha Centauri A would be 171 miles away and that is the nearest star.

    If the Earth was 24 hours old humans would have existed for a few seconds.

    Given the expanse of ever-expanding spacetime, I am not surprised we are yet without proof of contact.

    #37778

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Also unless you have a method to travel very, very, very fast (at speeds whereby a tiny particle impact could destroy a vehicle); don’t bother sending envoys into space. Future generations with faster ships will just pass them by, LOL.

    #37779

    Future generations with faster ships will just pass them by….

    If anyone else asks me if we are nearly there yet….I’ll put them back into the cryogenic chamber!!

    Here is one of my fav posts about the Fermi Paradox.

    #37780

    Davis
    Moderator

    I don’t think the distances between stars really matter considering the even larger scales of time (for example the time it took for humanity to go from putting the scientific method into rigorous practice to landing a person on moon). That amount of time (let’s say 500 years) would be a microsecond of time if the universe was 24 hours. If life should be so abundant even if the odds of emergence of life was super conservatively estimated, then some would have emerged a long long time ago and would have had abundant time to figure out how to do things like warping space (or even more exotic faster than speed of light travel) and completely run-over the entire galaxy with outposts/alliances or planet-enslavement by now. But they haven’t (at least nothing we can detect at the moment).

    While it is true that other answers could explain their absence (they don’t want to leave their systems, they are hiding from us, prime directive, we are among the first etc) I some how doubt that. Many of the answers to the fermi-paradox (assuming interstellar travel is common) are  extremely interesting and are all plausible in their own ways. I personally like the more humbling theory:

    They are completely uninterested in contacting us.

    I remember seeing a really good comic sketch where aliens land on Earth and meet some humans. They tell us of a great alliance of planets and an amazing universe to discover. But they cannot allow humanity to join…because we constantly lie and deceive (other intelligent beings in the alliance don’t) and they simply cannot trust us with their galactic knowledge or joining in on complex alien relations etc). So they put a containment field around our solar system so we can never leave and fuck up the universe.

    While it is ridiculous (the odds we are the only life that lie to one another on a daily basis is low)…I don’t think this is such an outlandish scenario.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Davis.
    #37782

    Unseen
    Participant

    The speed of light isn’t as fast as you may think it is.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.
    #37790

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    The 1,000-day old GDPR complaint about leaving the Catholic church. *

    i am all for anyone getting their name off of membership lists of religions and off of junk-mail lists in general.  However, this European notion of a “right to be forgotten” has some serious problems and thus would not be a good route for ex-religionists to take.

    For one thing, a legitimate right requires no positive obligation on the part of another, only a negative obligation.  The Right to Life only requires that others not take your life; absent a prior agreed obligation, it doesn’t require others to provide you with the means of survival.

    The Right to Liberty means only requires that others not enslave you; again, absent a prior agreed obligation, it does not require others to assist you in exercising your Liberty.

    The Right to Property means you have a right to make, earn, and use the fruits of your thought and labor and only obliges others not to violate it; absent a prior agreed obligation, it obviously doesn’t require others to give you property.

    Because a “right to be forgotten” requires a positive obligation on the part of others to forget you, it is not and cannot be a legitimate right.

    A legitimate right also does not contradict pre-existing rights.  However, a “right to be forgotten” requires involuntary servitude of any other indiviual who has information about someone.  In particular, it would require prior restraint upon anyone possessing any medium of communication and it would require omniscient knowledge about any person claiming a “right to be forgotten.”  This is a very big no-no on the part  of government under the  U.S. First Amendment.

    Also, a “right to be forgotten” is a demand for the logically impossible.  A demand to “Forget me” is like the demand: “Don’t think about an elephant.”  In order to even understand the demand, you have do all the concept-formation to understand what an elephant is and, Voila!  You’ve thought about an elephant!   And if a demand is logically impossible, it is not within the realm of ethics and morality.  “Ought” implies “can.”

    (This also has relevance on the whole question of volition versus Determinism as well, which I can elaborate on later in the relevant thread.)

    Basically, a “right to be forgotten” is a person identifying as The Lost Ark of The Covenant” and commanding all to: “Avert your eyes from me or die!”

    And just think: If an ex-religionist can claim this “right to be forgotten,” couldn’t a molester priest who is released back into society by a screwy justice system claim the same right too?   That is scary!

    There is a better way to get off of religious membership rolls that is compatiblewith other individual rights which I will elaborate on a  little later.

    #37791

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Enco, all of those rights (liberty, property, life) are hollow when the inequities of capitalism create an unconscionable imbalance in wealth and opportunity. There are great numbers who in fact do need assistance to right the wrongs of capitalism. If it is by implied consent of the masses that an economic system that insures the few will have the lion’s share and the many will have the scraps then it is disingenuous to assert that it is hands-off my tail that is tantamount to those vaunted rights.

    Before workers fought for their rights capitalists were abusing the living bejesus out of children. The famous Ricardo’s iron law of wages (more or less the idea that employers pay only subsistence wages to workers cuz that is all they had to do to keep their factories rolling) was promulgated at a time when capitalist owners held all of the cards and they exploited the living fuck out of workers. And when workers began to form unions and fight for rights thousands were killed by the employers’ agents and by governments. Even now corporations are wont to go overseas to exploit foreign workers. Corporations have undue influence in government and politics and utilizing their power to gain advantages.

    Thus, the libertarian fairy tales about equal opportunity ought to be understood for what they are. Those chimerical notions are wonderful for the powerful few but they are poison for the disadvantaged many.

    #37796

    Autumn
    Participant

    Because a “right to be forgotten” requires a positive obligation on the part of others to forget you, it is not and cannot be a legitimate right.

    That’s not even a little bit true. For instance the right to a fair trial isn’t merely the absence of bias and discrimination. It requires adherence to process and specific steps that need to be taken. Many legal and moral rights create positive obligations in practice.

    Also, a “right to be forgotten” is a demand for the logically impossible.  A demand to “Forget me” is like the demand: “Don’t think about an elephant.”

    It doesn’t refer to people purging you from their minds. It refers to certain circumstances where you have the right for your personal data to be purged.

    #37797

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco you have a really bizarre idea of what rights are and they bear little relation to how rights actually work. The idea that rights must only bequeath privilege to people and require no compromise to them is truly bizarre and not remotely how rights were conceived nor work in practice.

    The bill of rights place all sorts of limits on people (in order to respect other people’s rights) and those go back centuries. The end of slavery put limits on others to treat fellow humans as chattel. Anti-discrimination rights limit your choice to unfairly exclude someone because of the way they were born.

    The rest of the democratic world recognises that in order to end the most toxic problems in society you have to give a shit about others and make some, what in the end are, actually quite small compromises. Why can’t neo-conservative America get that? Do middle class neo-con Americans really prefer petty financial savings and the “illusion of rights” in return for violence, homelessness and poverty and massive inequality and inequity in the streets?

    The right to be forgotten is a “right” because it is included in a series of “rights” that 27 nation states all ratified in their constitutions. And it protects people’s digital privacy which is an entirely sensible right. The only organisations who have to compromise are faceless digital behemoths who cannot suck a few more cents out of people’s digital profiles despite the fact that it can pointlessly harm people.

    #37798

    jakelafort
    Participant

    I am not sure that libertarians conceive of our economics and lives as being ideally modeled against the jungle or a state of nature. But it sure seems to me that is the backdrop of their stance.

    If it is true it is a paradigm that is inapposite. Nature does not give such great and overwhelming advantage to so few. Sure a mountain gorilla silverback may have his little band and all mammals except the few who are loners have hierarchies based on strength that result in mating and food advantages but to compare those alphas to the upper echelon of humans is just not on point.

    The animal kingdom is much more a meritocracy than anything humans can achieve. The strongest in nature occupy the top tier and are always subject to challenge by rivals. Their standing is constantly at issue. They don’t inherit wealth. They don’t sit on their high hobby horse in a board room or have their gazillion workers doing their bidding and dirty work.

    #37799

    Happy 80th Birthday to Bob Dylan.

    It ain’t me Babe by Bettye LaVette

    To Ramona by Sinead Lohan

    All along the Watchtower by Jimi Hendrix

    And a Happy 90th Birthday to Captain Kirk who still boldly goes there.

    And my favorite of his for showing me, in 1986, to flow with the thoughts in my head when I smoke good weed.

    Now turn the volume up to 11 and come back with another poet.

    #37800

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Captain Kirk 90? 90 used to seem like an age of such oldness, infirmity decrepitude and senility that it was unimaginable. But now almost a third of the way there it does not seem so ancient. Life seems to pass like a summer breeze.

    Can weed lovers distinguish good from bad and or actually identify the weed? Weed is great but i think it is better utilized in moderation. Truth be told i would use it more if i did not worry about how it might fuck up my lungs. I freaking kill myself to stay cardio fit so it feels unbalanced to smoke a lot.

    #37801

    @jakelafort – I have a good vaporizer that I bought in Calif. I hardly notice the hit. I don’t smoke too much of it (Just the right amount!!), maybe once a month now or even less. I only consume good weed and never buy off the street. I grow my own or know the farmer who has years of experience. Like I said before, I have been a regular consumer of weed for almost 40 years but can still run 5k in 25\26 minutes. (I avoid tobacco).

    #37803

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg and Fellow Unbelievers,

    To continue what I was discussing earlier, there is a way to get off of religious membership rolls in a manner fully compatible with pre-existing individual rights:

    Use the power of Internet media which is the tool of every person and create so much trouble for the religious body that has your name on the rolls, that the religious body will be so embarrassed they’ll have purge your name!

    Get a live cam, sign up on YouTube as something like”DilettanteMilitantCatholic,” eat a big pot of beans, then genuflect every time you let a fart fly!

    Even better, why not showcase for the world how much you have forgotten about Catholic Dogma, from the Creed of Nicea to The Lord’s Prayer to the Rosary to Novenas to how many days of Easter there are.  Then punctuate it all by saying; “How ’bout that much-vaunted Jesuit education?”

    Do an online confessional from waking to bedtime of every thought of every Minor, Major, Vestal, Venial, and Mortal sin that comes to mind as you make sausages and eggs, watch TV, play video games, listen to “Devil Music,” and just walk down the street people-watching.

    Save (what appears to be) every pair of underwear where you had a wet dream, because, hey, “Every Sperm Is Sacred!”  It’s a potential person!

    And with OnlyFans, there is simply no limit to the kinky, freaky-deaky fun you could have, everything one could possibly do with crucifixes, chalices, candles, beads, scourges, and Hollywood special effects Stigmata, then give gift cards to the Church hierarchy so they can get a free show!

    The Church has excommunicated people for far less.  It’s just a short step from there to throwing someone out completely. Church Dogma has turned on some really strange things.  Nudge them along!  Make them know that despair is real and some people really are irredeemable!

    Refrain from any actual force, fraud, or harm, don’t drag anyone else on the crazy train, and it might be fun!

    #37804

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Autumn,

    That’s not even a little bit true. For instance the right to a fair trial isn’t merely the absence of bias and discrimination. It requires adherence to process and specific steps that need to be taken. Many legal and moral rights create positive obligations in practice.

    The obligation of due process is imposed by the Constitution and the law upon the government, not upon private individuals, and the individuals who serve in the government (i.e. law enforcement, judges, magistrates, bailiffs, wardens, prison guards, etc.) take up that obligation willingly when they assume their positions.

    It doesn’t refer to people purging you from their minds. It refers to certain circumstances where you have the right for your personal data to be purged.

    That requires prior restraint upon whoever uses a medium of communication to convey information.  Again, under the U.S. Constitution’s First Amendment, Fourteenth Amendment, and subsequent court rulings by the Supremes, government cannot exercise such prior restraint.

    Also, if there’s such a thing as a statutory “right to be forgotren” and a legal process for implementing that right against individuals with communications media, wouldn’t there have to be a legal record somewhere of all the persons who asserted “the right to be forgotten?”

    Would those records also have to “be forgotten” by media owners and users too?  Would those records have to be forbidden to the public?  Would a person have a “right to be forgotten” from those records?  And what does all this do to government accountability?  As Cervantes wisely asked: “Who watches the Watchmen?”

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 64 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.