Sunday School

Sunday School 23rd May 2021

This topic contains 63 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 5 months, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 64 total)
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  • #37843

    Autumn
    Participant

    This brings up yet another problem: If a convicted criminal ever succeeded in silencing news media with a “right to be forgotten,” couldn’t the convicted criminal use the “right to be forgotten” to silence the victims too?

    No. It’s not a gag order (or similar order/ agreement). It covers the erasure of certain data on limited grounds, and it also can be overridden by certain competing interests. For instance, with the GDPR:

    https://gdpr.eu/right-to-be-forgotten/

    When does the right to be forgotten apply?

    In Article 17, the GDPR outlines the specific circumstances under which the right to be forgotten applies. An individual has the right to have their personal data erased if:

    • The personal data is no longer necessary for the purpose an organization originally collected or processed it.
    • An organization is relying on an individual’s consent as the lawful basis for processing the data and that individual withdraws their consent.
    • An organization is relying on legitimate interests as its justification for processing an individual’s data, the individual objects to this processing, and there is no overriding legitimate interest for the organization to continue with the processing.
    • An organization is processing personal data for direct marketing purposes and the individual objects to this processing.
    • An organization processed an individual’s personal data unlawfully.
    • An organization must erase personal data in order to comply with a legal ruling or obligation.
    • An organization has processed a child’s personal data to offer their information society services.

    However, an organization’s right to process someone’s data might override their right to be forgotten. Here are the reasons cited in the GDPR that trump the right to erasure:

    • The data is being used to exercise the right of freedom of expression and information.
    • The data is being used to comply with a legal ruling or obligation.
    • The data is being used to perform a task that is being carried out in the public interest or when exercising an organization’s official authority.
    • The data being processed is necessary for public health purposes and serves in the public interest.
    • The data being processed is necessary to perform preventative or occupational medicine. This only applies when the data is being processed by a health professional who is subject to a legal obligation of professional secrecy.
    • The data represents important information that serves the public interest, scientific research, historical research, or statistical purposes and where erasure of the data would likely to impair or halt progress towards the achievement that was the goal of the processing.
    • The data is being used for the establishment of a legal defense or in the exercise of other legal claims.
    #37844

    Here is a common example of GPDR and the “right to be forgotten” in Europe.

    I apply for a position in a commercial company by emailing them my resume. I am unsuccessful in my application and do not start working with this company. They keep my resume on file in their HR Dept.

    Under the rules of GDPR, they no longer have a right to retain my personal data as it not relevant to their organisation, once the process for which they had my data was concluded. They must securely shred or delete this information. I have the “right to be forgotten” by this company.

    Even if I am successful in my application, they must also shred my resume as it is no longer relevant to my role. Nobody now needs to read it.

    I won’t post any links because I only like to talk about GDPR on first dates.

    #37849

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    So, the company that accepted your resumé cannot keep it on file and contact you later if a position opens up for which you qualify?  And if a position opens up (and they advertize it,) you have to go to all the time and trouble to apply again?  That’s crazy!

    And if a company has to go to the added legal trouble of shredding and deleting resumés every time a position comes open, will they even advertise the position at all or will they only give positions to people in their insular “in-group,” to “us-folks,” to “The Old Boy Network?”

    Does GDPR even allow businesses to keep a Rolodex of business cards from contractors, vendors, merchandisers, sales prospects, etc. or do businesses just have to divine this information by psychic power?

    “GDPR” sounds like it’s an acronym for “God Damn Pain in the Rear.”

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Punctuation...Or should I delete everything and start over?
    #37854

    Davis
    Moderator

    Before colonialism the Abrahamic faiths had only partial reach into Africa (mostly Saharan and parts of East Africa), only partly in Asia (mostly West and Southern tip of South East Asia), barely in Oceania and completely non-existent in the Americas. And outside of Europe…almost all of it was through Islam with little pockets of Christianity here and there such as in Ethiopia and the Caucuses. In areas where Abrahamic religions hadn’t arrived or had minimal impact, homosexuality was perhaps frowned upon, sometimes it is not known, in some cases tolerated and in others rather accepted. What we do know is that tolerance of homosexuality was virtually wiped out in Southern Africa and the Americas for a LONG time and is vaguely making a come back in pockets of the Americas and a few somewhat progressive areas of South Africa. Abrahamic religions through colonialism so thoroughly instilled their idea of heterosexual sex and male dominated relationships in parts of the world that LGTBQ+ acceptance seems very very far away. This is especially the case in some Central African countries where some American evangelicals are still actively making life even more miserable (and potentially deadly) for LGTBQ+.

    All you have to do is compare countries in proximity to one another in East Asia which had some similar customs and acceptance of LGTBQ+ such as Thailand and the Philippines. After the mostly Christianization of the Philippines their acceptance of LGTBQ+ seriously diminished (though not entirely) while in non-Christianised Thailand this did not happen.

    #37856

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Agreed with you Davis but i want to add that it is absolutely fair to allocate a great deal of the harm of colonialism to the the Europeans and Americans. Their religion was not just a mind virus. It was not simply incidental.

    It was not enough to simply exploit resources and humans in the new world. They sent their missionaries and did their utmost to mind fuck the shit out of indigenous peoples along with enslave and kill…

    And if that were not enough they also made a conscious effort in some places to eliminate the native superstitions/culture in favor of their own. We recently received news of such ingratiation in Kamloops. One of the main issues with ideologues or extremists is their insistence on poisoning everything they touch.

    #37857

    Autumn
    Participant

    We’ve known for decades that mass, unmarked burial sites like these existed, but the government rejected funding support to look for them back in the early days of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. A lot of this stuff doesn’t hit the radar of the average Canadian, and even if it does, we’re remarkably well adapted to deflecting, distancing ourselves, or in some cases even blaming the indigenous populations for the ways we tried to wipe them out. But when it pops up in the news that the remains of 215 children—some as young as three—were found in a mass, unmarked burial site, that’s a lot harder to shake off than the softly spun narratives we’re used to.

    I think estimates from the residential school programs starting in the 19th century and ending a few years shy of the 21st were that 150,000 children were abducted from their parents. We don’t actually know how many died, just that it’s in the thousands. And I think current estimates look at the number that died at the schools. It may not include suicides in connection with trauma as a result of neglect, violence, forced labour, medical experimentation, rape, indoctrination, seeing your friends killed (etc.) that went on at the schools.

    The sort of thinking regarding First Nations, Inuit, and Métis that allowed us to commit (or ignore) such atrocities, while pretending we were a benevolent force is still alive in Canada today. People (including children) still die as a result.

    #37858

    @theencogitationer – To start with I would never accept a job with a company that did not hire me the first time. I would never re-apply to the same company. If I was not good enough for them the first time then they will never be good enough for me after that. Even if they did offer me another post it would most likely be months later, when I may be employed elsewhere. Also, my resume would be out of date by then.

    Why should they keep a copy and assume I might want to join then in the future? They made the mistake of not hiring me so I do not want them to retain my data. Yes, they would have to advertise again (to me assign of high staff turnover and therefore poor management and working conditions) and I would not re-apply. They no longer have a legal right to retain my details and I want to be forgotten by them as I have already dismissed them.

    As for the rolodex (look it up kids) of contacts, there is no problem there as they have a legitimate reason to retain that information.

    Nothing crazy about any of it.

    #37859

    Autumn
    Participant

    Hiring is an imprecise art, and not getting a job doesn’t mean you weren’t good enough. It often simply means a decision had to be made. When you have excellent candidates, you do sometimes want to come back to them if your initial hire doesn’t work out, or if another position opens up.

    As for why someone would accept after being rejected at least once, it could be someone’s dream job, or it could be an upward move, or it could be a necessary stepping stone on a career path, or it could be an issue of location… countless reasons, really.

    For some roles there is enough turnover or demand for employees that hiring is just an ongoing process of selecting people from a pool of candidates.

    There are plenty of conditions where it is in an organization’s interest to call back candidates not previously accepted. There are plenty of reasons it’s in the candidate’s interest as well.

    That said, most of these cases don’t require keeping someone’s resume on hand, and the issue could probably be circumvented by requesting permission to keep someone on file for a finite period of time anyway.

    #37860

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Yeah, if you had job interviews scheduled for Monday, you meet with Joe, Jim and Nancy. However on Tuesday it would have been Joe, Jane and Rita. Job interviews are almost random in nature and people are in and out of companies all the time, so I never attached a lot of ‘meaning’ to the result.

    #37861

    Yes, I know. I am not really in any disagreement with the points made. I once had a placement agency for a specialized sector and often had over 500 resumes on file as the work was mostly for short term placements and I had to check them for future placements that may have needed specialist technical qualifications. But if you left the agency your resume was deleted. If you rejoined an up to date one was required.

    #37862

    jakelafort
    Participant

    Reg shows up for an interview-a coveted position with hundreds of applicants.

    “I start tomorrow. By next week i am running the joint. Fetch me some bon bons pronto or i will fire your ass.”

    #37863

    If they would only listen to me 🙂

    #37864

    Autumn
    Participant

    But if you left the agency your resume was deleted. If you rejoined an up to date one was required.

    Look, all I’m saying is I want the CV where they’re still trying really hard to figure out how to spin their college McDonald’s job into something relevant for the career they’re trying to break into. Call me a sadist, but that is the poetry of struggle.

    #37879

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    You and all the Euro-Progressives seem to be forgetting yet another thing: It is not the business of a government of a free society to tell individuals or private businesses what they can peacefully and honestly do with data peacefully and honestly obtained.

    This whole GDPR “right to be forgotten” is a hammer in search of a nail, a solution in search of a problem.

    GDPR “the right to be forgotten” is also two other words I’d rather not use because they are one of the pass codes for living rent-free in Jake’s head, which has never been my intention.

    I feel like a sponge even knowing the pass codes, but he’s accidentally revealed them over time.  I wish had the ability to forget them, but as Thomas Paine observed, once people know the truth, you cannot make them unknow it, which in itself is an argument against GDPR “the right to be forgotten.”

     

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spacing between bodies of text. This much I can do
    #37881

    Autumn
    Participant

    Reg, You and all the Euro-Progressives seem to be forgetting yet another thing: It is not the business of a government of a free society to tell individuals or private businesses what they can peacefully and honestly do with data peacefully and honestly obtained.

    The right to be forgotten concerns competing interests and the philosophy that determines how civil complaints should be resolved. Simply saying ‘freedom’ doesn’t answer a damn thing.

    This is a question of people’s ‘freedom’ to control how their own data can be used in certain circumstances. While that data isn’t the same as IP or likeness rights, more and more with the means by which data is obtained and used, it’s entering that realm.

    I put ‘freedom’ in quotes because the issue with your line of thinking is we can always characterize every issue as a matter of freedom. Society’s are collective by nature. That provides collective benefits, but it also provides countless scenarios where we step on each other’s toes. ‘Free society’ is a relative term. If you try to make it an absolute it quickly becomes oxymoronic. Even in the absence of legislation, something else fills the vacuum to determine who is free to step on whose toes.

     

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