Sunday School

Sunday School May 10th 2020

This topic contains 40 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  _Robert_ 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

Viewing 11 posts - 31 through 41 (of 41 total)
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  • #31495

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The dangers of digging holes as traps.

    He may be a known misogynist, but the author is correct to identify a flaw in the tactics of (presumably) the Left.  We have to have due process before convicting someone, otherwise the alternative is unsubstantiated witch-hunts.  On the other hand, rape or sexual assault is difficult to prove.  But “believe all accusers” is a recipe for trouble that cheapens the credibility of genuine survivors.

    #31496

    Davis
    Participant

    Simon there is no such thing as the “left”. The world isn’t divided into two groups that work even remotely enough in tandem to make any generalizations worth saying anything meaningful about.

    #31497

    Davis
    Participant

    Asking people to “believe” survivors isn’t a tactic to give 100% support and credence to anyone who says they are a survivor. It is an attempt to get people to stop automatically doubting those who call out rape or sexual assault which has been the norm since forever and is still the de-facto response for an enormous number of people as well as police officers and those who can do something about it. The point isn’t to get people to assume absolute guilt from the beginning but to stop excusing it and brushing it off as is the default for a still enormous chunk of people. In other words, to get people to take such accusations as seriously as they would take other more easily accepted accusations. In other words, an accusation of fraud or theft is relatively uncontroversial yet sexual assault is met with near automatic doubt by too many people. Asking people to believe victims is asking them to counter their reflex to doubt.

    The author is chronically skeptical of claims of sexual assault and would be quite content if the nuisance of exposing the high level of sexual harassment in the work place and public just went away.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #31499

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    there is no such thing as the “left”

    You don’t believe that the alt-Right is a thing?

    #31500

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Asking people to “believe” survivors

    Yes, but #BelieveAllWomen means “believe all accusers”, and a blanket policy like this just plays into the hands of misogynists, as we see here (assuming that the author is a misogynist).  Misogynists love to bang on about false rape allegations.

    No good comes of no good.  Removing the basic faculty of justice leads to disaster.

    #31501

    Davis
    Participant

    The “alt-right” is not the same thing as “the right”. They tend to vote for parties that are grouped under the right side of the political spectrum but they are a fringe group of their own. And even they don’t remotely speak with one voice and it is exceedingly difficult to characterize them. That…is hardly the same as grouping 50% of the world together and jamming their political views into a voice…which is ridiculous. It’s one thing to talk about tendencies. That can be valuable in a very abstract way. The moment you start saying “the problem with the left”. It’s only slightly more meaningful than saying “the problem with voters who live in East-London”. It’s absurd to generalize about them.

    #31502

    Davis
    Participant

    Yeah Simon…changing 10,000 years of people ignoring, dismissing or disbelieving (or not caring) sexual abuse victims (or vilifying them) is going to be an easy subtle nuanced strategy. I don’t give a shit how mysogenists spin the “believe” movement. I don’t think you will make any progress with:

    #stop-dismissing-sexual-assault-victims-than-you-do-another-non-controversial-crimes

    will get you very far. People don’t shed a tear for those falsely accused of other crimes but they do for the tiny fraction of those of sexual-assault crimes. And that speaks of all the bias and ingrained disbelief well ridden in our cultural consciousness that we are trying to fight in the first place.

    And if that still puts you on the defensive…consider this. Just about everyone believes an adult man who comes out and accuses someone of sexual assault. He may deal with a lot of fall out but will be believed. Women deal with the fall out AND a huge dose of disbelief. It’s culturally programmed.

    #31503

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    #TakeAccusersSeriously is short.

    People don’t shed a tear for those falsely accused of other crimes but they do for the tiny fraction of those of sexual-assault crimes.

    That’s because it’s one of the worst things that a man can be accused of, and the difficulty in proving it goes both ways.

    The moment you start saying “the problem with the left”. It’s only slightly more meaningful than saying “the problem with voters who live in East-London”. It’s absurd to generalize about them.

    You’re right, I shouldn’t lump them in all together.  However, those #BelieveAllWomen people were claiming to speak for the #metoo movement.  What’s more, the Democrats were weaponising these sexual assualt claims, were they not?  I thought that is what the article is about.

    #31504

    @davis – I am quoting you verbatim as it is worth a second read.

    The point isn’t to get people to assume absolute guilt from the beginning but to stop excusing it and brushing it off as is the default for a still enormous chunk of people. In other words, to get people to take such accusations as seriously as they would take other more easily accepted accusations. In other words, an accusation of fraud or theft is relatively uncontroversial yet sexual assault is met with near automatic doubt by too many people. Asking people to believe victims is asking them to counter their reflex to doubt.

    It’s a good description of a major societal issue with a succinct solution.

    #31505

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    The moment you start saying “the problem with the left”. It’s only slightly more meaningful than saying “the problem with voters who live in East-London”. It’s absurd to generalize about them.

    Again, you are correct, technically, that the Left is not monolithic, in the same way that Islam, Christianity, feminism, atheism, etc. are not monolithic.

    However, other people don’t necessarily see it that way.  When any left-wing person acts, they do so on behalf of the entire Left, as far as the rest of the world is concerned.  My point is, the #BelieveAllWomen people were irresponsible, because they tainted the entire #metoo campaign, with a lack of soundness.

    #31506

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I just don’t see the world as defined by the left or right. I see initiatives as being smart/stupid, efficient/inefficient, lacking/sufficient, moral/immoral, scientific/unfounded, etc. in degrees. I currently find Biden to be smarter, more scientific and most likely more caring of people than the incumbent egocentric and highly contradictory moron.

    The proper amount of civil liberties afforded is a balancing act that has to shift around with the current environment. During dangerous times, free people often have to give up some of their freedoms. ‘Pick up a rifle and live in a foxhole for years’ is just one example. The winners in history are always those who can adapt with changing times and situations. Steadfast party affiliated dingbats just don’t help much.

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