Sunday School

Sunday School November 3rd 2019

This topic contains 15 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  Simon Paynton 6 days, 13 hours ago.

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  • #29221

    This is the new Trump Whisperer to advise the White House on the supernatural affairs of State. A politically astute pastor has observed that Trump left Syria in order to bring about the Last Days.

    Pennsylvanian taxpayers have had over $1m squandered on allowing the legislatures tradition of discrimination against non-Christians to continue.

    President Jesus Trump is King.

    The US Naval Academy can now convene and hold satanic services.

    In Indonesia members of the Religion of Peace inflict violence on each other to please their god.

    This weeks’ Woo: Halloween sadism.

    Climate Crisis: A scary year for Climate Change.

    Basing your “ultimate standard for morality” on a deity is the truly arbitrary choice.

    Is the Golden Rule good enough? The study of philosophy is but an introduction to philosophy.

    Some more on the cloudy matter of materialism and the nature of consciousness. Maybe it is time then that we need to rethink how we think about it. But you first must be potentially ready to do so.

    Our first Human homeland was in Africa though some disagree with the study. Further new research reveals where we first populated South America.  Neanderthals were different because their genes were regulated differently.

    Learning to spot Bullshit in the wild.

    Five scientific explanations for spooky sensations.

    Long Read: Why are so many people triggered by Veganism?

    This week I am reading this book: Why trust Science?

    Some photographs taken last week.

    While you are waiting for the kettle to boil…..

    Coffee Break Video:  TedTalk: This ancient rock is changing our theory on the origin of life. TedTalk: Quantum Physics that I can understand. Your Faith is a Joke.

    #29222

    Have a great week everyone!!

    #29223

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Is the Golden Rule good enough?

    I like this article, but I think that the author, Eric Schwitzgebel, mischaracterises the way that the Golden Rule is used in real life.

    In real life, we don’t just say “I will treat you as I would wish to be treated”, but also “I will treat you as I would wish x loved one to be treated”.  So, we already use Mengzi’s version routinely.

    #29224

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Basing your “ultimate standard for morality” on a deity is the truly arbitrary choice.

    I think that Richard Dawkins was right to say that God’s “eye in the sky” regulates the behaviour of religious people.  But the atheist world has that same eye in the sky, in the form of “each other” or one’s reputation and conscience.  Public opinion keeps our behaviour in check.  Only a sociopath lacks a conscience and a moral compass, and everyone else has them.

    At the same time, I think there is a place for formal moral instruction, religion-style – it helps the individual to gain wisdom and saves time.

    People who claim the existence of “moral realism” – these objective values exist “out there” – maybe don’t realise that you can generate principles such as helping the needy, fairness, equality and the Golden Rule from cooperation.

    #29225

    Strega
    Moderator

    Thanks, Reg!

    #29226

    The takeaway point of the article is that there is no absolute morality. I agree with you that there is a place for formal moral instruction – based upon civil dialogue and example based ideas that people get to discuss in an open forum. But for me the “religion –style” idea is wrong. Religious based morality, by its very nature, a disservice to our understanding of Evolution and our enlightened derived standards.

    For theists to admit that they need an “eye-in-the-sky” proves that point. If they can’t grasp that then they better keep their faith because they are also admitting to not have managed to regulate their own actions.

    I, for one will continue to murder, rape and pillage as much as ever, based upon my own atheist derived ethical standards. At the age of 55 my total “sin count” for all three crimes combined is Zero. Hopefully I will be able to continue to self-regulate based upon secular reasoning while continuing to poke my finger into that eye in the sky and with the  middle finger of my other hand raised while doing so.

    #29227

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I think that religious morality isn’t arbitrary, in the same way that secular morality isn’t arbitrary – both are based on the human need for cooperation.  But religious morality has a number of arbitrary dictates on top of that, mainly coming from patriarchy, such as hating on gay people, or at least, gay sex.

    The problem as I see it with “objective morality” is that it tends to agree with whatever the individual thinks is right and wrong.  And in any case, where is it to be found?  “In our hearts”, and our hearts don’t know what is objective or not.

    What is this objective morality supposed to consist of?  Morality varies round the world, but helping, fairness, reciprocity etc. and all the small-group principles are core to all of it, since we all share a small-group evolutionary heritage.

    Religion also aids morality in helping with partner choice and partner control.  Partner choice: choose people who show they have faith in God and therefore regulate their own behaviour in this direction.  Partner control: God does the controlling.

    #29228

    PopeBeanie
    Moderator

    wrt the Trollump [sic] Whisperer, she’s just one of many trolls on his troll shoulders who preach to bigots of all kinds. Well planned, divisive stoking of anger has successfully motivated such “deplorables”, as much of the left’s triggered reaction to it breathes even more life into us-vs-them hysteria.

    Breitbart, Bannon, et al (including foreign state powers) have been driving this strategy since long before we knew wtf was happening. How can we fight this aggressive, war-making, social-media-driven strategy, without looking like haters ourselves? They have tapped into the dark nature of human beings, pulling everyone down with them, and they’re using belief in God to do it while feeling righteous about it.

    For the sake of your sanity (unless you like torture), I’ve shaved minutes off of the following Paula White videos:

    #29229

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Paula White does a pretty good “minister speak”. I give her a 7 out of 10. “Blood of Jesus—-ah”. They probably have a performance class at their fake colleges.

    #29230

    I suppose she is modestly dressed but she is wearing an elaborate hairstyle and has some flashy adornments which St. Paul would not approve of. He made this very clear in 1 Tim verse 2. But he was very specific as few verses later when he said “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet”.

    What part of this does she not get? Are the Evangelicals cool with this now? I wonder if she can summon She-Bears?

     

    #29231

    Here are some Biblical commandments that many Christians consider absolute.

    I am more interested in ethical behavior. If objective morality can lead to good ethical decisions then it does not matter if it is arbitrary. Religious people generally insist that the moral law of their god is absolute. It is only the influence of reasoned secular thinking that has improved our standards. It has compelled me to see religious standards as medieval. We should be so past that stage in our history. Debating the merits of biblical morality is like debating the merits of corporal punishment.

    #29236

    @simon“Jesus” – there’s always room for a character example or mentor figure in people’s lives, and he provides a good one.

    Except for a few occasions but at least he didn’t stutter:

    (also covered in Sunday School last January 6th).

    He told his followers to hate their families.

    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26

    He came to break apart families.

    I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. Matthew 10:35-36

    The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53

    He insisted that his followers love him more than anyone else (including their families).

    He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37

    He encouraged people to abandon their home and family for his name’s sake.

    And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30

    He was rude to his own family.

    Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! Matthew 12: 47-49, Mark 3:31-34, Luke 8:20-21

    He was dismissive of other people’s feelings toward their families.

    And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Matthew 8:21-22, Luke 9:59-62

    He discouraged marriage.

    They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Luke 20:35

    He was a hypocrite. He told his followers not to call anyone a fool.

    Whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Matthew 5:22

    Yet he often called his critics and disciples fools.

    Ye fools and blind. Matthew 23:17, 19

    Ye fools. Luke 11:40

    O fools, and slow of heart to believe. Luke 24:25

    He encouraged his followers to mutilate themselves to avoid hell.

    Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out … And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Matthew 5:28-30

    If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Matthew 18:8-9

    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off … And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off … And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:43-48

    He encouraged men to castrate themselves.

    There are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. Matthew 19:12

    He approved of God’s killings in the Bible.

    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words … It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:14-15

    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37

    As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man … the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot … the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all … Remember Lot’s wife. Luke 17:26-32

    As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14

    He believed in the Old Testament’s stories.

    But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37, Luke 17:27

    But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. … Remember Lot’s wife. Luke 17:29-32

    For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

    He accepted Old Testament laws.

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

    He criticized the Pharisees for not killing parent-cursing children.

    God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Matthew 15:4

    Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death. Mark 7:10

    He and his dad plan to torture billions of people forever after they die.

    Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matthew 7:19

    Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

    The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42

    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:49-50

    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment. Matthew 25:46

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

    Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. Luke 12: 5

    He implied that all Jews are going to hell.

    But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 8:12

    He was a false prophet.

    Verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Matthew 10:23

    Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matthew 16:28, Mark 9:1, Luke 9:27

    Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30, Luke 21:32

    Behold, I come quickly. Revelation 3:11, 22:7, 22:11, 22:20

    He was a warmonger.

    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53

    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Revelation 19:11

    He was a megalomaniac.

    Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed. Mark 8:38

    He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God … he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36

    If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:16

    He condemned cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching.

    Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! … And thou, Capernaum … shalt be brought down to hell … it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Matthew 11:21-24

    Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mark 6:11

    But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not … it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! … And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. Luke 10:10-15

    He called an entire generation perverse, evil, adulterous vipers.

    O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? … Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign. Matthew 12:34-39, 16:4

    Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation…. 17:17

    He invented George W. Bush’s false dichotomy.

    He that is not with me is against me. Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:230

    He approved of torture.

    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. Matthew 18:34-35

    He inspired the Republican Tea Party.

    Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12, Mark 4:25

    Unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. Matthew 25:29

    He believed in an unforgivable sin.

    Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men … whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matthew 12:31-32, Mark 3:29, Luke 12:10

    He spoke in parables to confuse people so he could send them to hell.

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. Mark 4:11, Matthew 13:10-15

    He believed in a God (himself?) who had his enemies slaughtered in front of him.

    But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. Luke 19:27

    He believed in devils, evil eyes, and unclean spirits.

    Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying … cast out devils. Matthew 10:5-8

    Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him. Matthew 12:22

    And Jesus rebuked the devil. Matthew 17:18

    And he … cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mark 1:34

    Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils. Luke 9:1

    And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God. And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:11-12

    An evil eye … defile the man. Mark 7:22-23

    But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. Matthew 6:23, Luke 11:34

    There was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit … And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. Mark 1:23-25

    He gave them power against unclean spirits. Matthew 10:1

    When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:43-45, Luke 11:24-26

    He was a bit of a racist.

    The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. Mark 7:26-27, Matthew 15:22-26

    He condemned people to hell for things that their ancestors supposedly did.

    Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. … Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? … Upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:31-35

    He got kind of gross sometimes.

    And he … put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue. Mark 7:33

    He took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. Mark 8: 23

    He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. John 9:6

    Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life … For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him … He that eateth me, even he shall live by me. John 6:53-57

    He approved of slavery (or at least didn’t object to it) and said that God is like a slave owner who beats his slaves and sells families to pay for debts.

    And a certain centurion’s servant [slave], who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die. And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant. … When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And they that were sent, returning to the house, found the servant whole that had been sick. Luke 7:2-10

    And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luke 12:47

    The kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. Matthew 18:23-25

    Someday he’ll fight against people with a sword sticking out of his mouth.

    Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Revelation 2:16

    And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. … And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:15, 21

    He threatens to kill children (with death).

    I will kill her children with death. Revelation 2:23

    He’s going to kill billions of people with his sickle.

    Upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. ,,, And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. … And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Revelation 14:14-20

    He unnecessarily killed 2000 pigs.

    And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding. So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine. And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters. Matthew 8:30-32

    And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine … And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. Mark 5:12-13

    Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked. Luke 8:33

    He killed a fig tree by cursing it. (Because it didn’t have any fruit that he could eat.)

    When he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Matthew 21:19

    And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. Mark 11:13-14

    He didn’t know much about Biology.

    It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. Mark 4:31-32

    He lied about prayer.

    Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Matthew 17:20

    That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:23-24

    Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do. John 14:13-14, 15:7, 15:16, 16:23

    If ye have faith, and doubt not … if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matthew 21:21-22

    If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. Luke 17:6

    He said some stupid things.

    All things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23

    Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19

    That which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    Some of you shall they cause to be put to death … but there shall not an hair of your head perish. Luke 21:16-18

    Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. Luke 21:23

    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:38

    And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world … that they which see might be made blind. John 9:39

    He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. John 12:25

    He talked complete nonsense about the end of the world.

    Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. … In those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mark 13:8, 24-25, Matthew 24:3-30, Luke 21:10-11

    He said that everyone who lived before him was a thief and a robber.

    All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers John 10:8

    His neighbors rejected him.

    Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And they were offended in him. Matthew 13:55-57, Mark 6:3

    Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? John 6:42

    Many that saw him up close and personal thought he was mad and possessed by a devil.

    Many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? John 10:20

    His family didn’t believe in him.

    For neither did his brethren believe in him. John 7:5

    His friends thought he was insane.

    And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself. Mark 3:21

    He said that his true followers would cast out devils, speak in tongues, handle snakes, and drink poisons.

    And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Mark 16:17-18

    He said that disbelievers will be tormented forever in hell.

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

    He dresses kind of funny.

    The Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass … and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword. Revelation 1:13-16

    The Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass Revelation 2:18

    His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood … And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword … And … on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:12-16

    He is the living dead with keys to hell and death.

    I am he that liveth, and was dead… and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:13-16

    #29237

    Simon here is a synopsis of the book.

    Why efforts to create a scientific basis of morality are neither scientific nor moral:

    In this illuminating book, James Davison Hunter and Paul Nedelisky trace the origins and development of the centuries-long, passionate, but ultimately failed quest to discover a scientific foundation for morality. The “new moral science” led by such figures as E. O. Wilson, Patricia Churchland, Sam Harris, Jonathan Haidt, and Joshua Greene is only the newest manifestation of that quest. Though claims for its accomplishments are often wildly exaggerated, this new iteration has been no more successful than its predecessors. But rather than giving up in the face of this failure, the new moral science has taken a surprising turn. Whereas earlier efforts sought to demonstrate what is right and wrong, the new moral scientists have concluded, ironically, that right and wrong don’t actually exist. Their (perhaps unwitting) moral nihilism turns the science of morality into a social engineering project. If there is nothing moral for science to discover, the science of morality becomes, at best, a feeble program to achieve arbitrary societal goals. Concise and rigorously argued, Science and the Good is a definitive critique of a would-be science that has gained extraordinary influence in public discourse today and an exposé of that project’s darker turn.

    I stumbled upon it a few months back and the above was enough for me to dismiss it, especially when it reeks of Christian apologetics and then discovered it was co-written by a Professor of Religion.

    #29254

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    it reeks of Christian apologetics and then discovered it was co-written by a Professor of Religion.

    That makes sense.  But on the other hand, it’s hard to argue with their conclusions with what we have to hand.

    #29255

    The “quest to discover a scientific foundation for morality” has failed.

    Really??

    My problem with these apologists are their constant ultracrepidarian attempts to either misuse the discoveries of Science to prove “what the Bible or Koran already knew” or their ignorant dismissal of science because they do not like what it demonstrates.

    They are treating “morality” as as a theological subject and refuse to acknowledge that it’s roots are in human social relations.

    They are dismissive of Science in general, not because Science has given better explanations to subjects that religion previously claimed dominion over but because Science has understood religion and the psychology of why people believe in supernatural entities.

    It is the method of arriving at conclusions that is the problem. Truth, to the scientific mind is provisional, not absolute. Science aims to improve our understandings of the world over time. To call it an “abject failure” is proof that the authors value “revelation” more. Science operates by works, not by faith.

    I dismiss their conclusions.

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