mike

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  • #29767

    mike
    Participant

    “So when we offer people our thoughts and prayers, is that a form of lucid dreaming?”

    Maybe???

    My rabbit is named “Harvey” so I can answer this…yes really…I have three rabbits: Pixie, Chichi and Harvey. Harvey is the old one who kept waking me up.

    Prayers=mediation=yoga=hallucinogenic experience=NDE=Tapping=Cybernetic Transposition=positive thinking=the power of intention=quantum field theory and the collapse of the wave function=the placebo effect=fundamental consciousness

    So… before you guys “hate” all over this (and me) …I will just mention “again” that I am only reporting what various, seemingly, unrelated discipline have in common …

    I swear I didn’t make any of this up…I can answer the question, but I can’t report all the research to you because I would have to write a book. Each topic can be independently looked-up, but I will summarize “in my own words” each briefly…

    I will start with “the placebo effect” because it will be the only one that you all have to believe in…it is “fact” by the standards of the scientific method: the only one we all know about, and have-to acknowledge is weird; but really, not well understood.

    -the placebo effect =the ability of the mind to cause radical changes in our physiology (heal itself) just by “believing” a cure was administered.

    -meditation =dropping down levels of consciousness until the “I” no longer exists, thus entering the domain of the Source.

    -yoga =creating harmony between mind and body by posture and breath techniques allowing a meditative state.

    – hallucinogenic experience =taking enough drugs to experience “ego death” and then entering another realm populated by consciousness entities who teach profound insights.

    -near-death-experiences =out of body experiences where individuals maintain consciousness and enter the “light”.

    -tapping by Dawson Church =a method he developed to create change in one’s body and mind though the power of intentional thoughts.

    – cybernetic Transposition by Stuart Litchman =the latest method used primarily by Silicon Valley Techies to get-rich-quick by using “chakras” to communicate with your sub-conscious mind.

    -positive thinking =long being known to create a life free of anxiety and stress and get stuff you want.

    – the power of intention =if you believe it can happen, then it will happen…the mantra of positive thinkers

    – quantum field theory and the collapse of the wave function =little understood but, particles in a superposition of several states get reduced to a single state due to interaction with the external world. This interaction is called an “observation”. Much debated but, possibly inferring a fundamental consciousness precedes matter. In essence; Physicists are considering the question “does consciousness manifests information?”

    Finally…

    -prayer =the belief that by talking to your personal God he will grant you favours… “ask and you shall receive”

    I hope you see what they all have in common, even if they do not…

    They are all in communication with a consciousness at it’s fundamental level. I like the term Universal Consciousness, but some prefer Source, System, God, Creator etc.

    This still may not make sense to anyone reading this unless they read what I wrote before…

    “…consciousness is fundamental (outside space/time) in the cosmos. Space/time (where we are now, and all life and matter in all the galaxies resides) is an informational construct that our individuated consciousnesses bring into existence. Our neural anatomy simply provides a temporary home for our consciousness; to a greater or lesser degree in all organisms. When we die (or disconnect from our biological hardware) our consciousness re-establishes a connection with the Universal Consciousness U.C. and becomes aware, temporarily, that we are a very small part of a cosmological entity; some may think of as God, Source, or digital system, U.C., etc. Anyone can access this Universal Consciousness by disconnecting in all the ways I have already mentioned…”

    The brain, through a conscious intention in the present, can cause changes to matter before it is brought into existence by informing the UC (which is outside of the present moment because it does not exist in space/time) of its needs.  I.E: placebo  =”this pill will cure me because I know it will” and it does…a statistically significant portion of “sometime”; prayer = “ask and you shall receive”; DMT =teach me what I need do, to cure my cancer; NDE =”show me the light”

    They are all in communication with the “Universal Consciousness”.

    #29761

    mike
    Participant

    Well now that you mention it…I haven’t given up on the idea…

    …Had a burning bush appeared and started talking, had some entity given me some knowledge I could not possibly have learned in this life-time, had I awoken with the power to bring back the dead…I certainly would have posited this as evidence. Unfortunately, the banality of my experiences, even in lucid-dreams, (far-out that they are compared to regular dreams) were explainable by movie imagery and life-lessons …sort of like, the bible being the obvious myths and lessons learned by ignorant peasants, clergy and fishermen in their nasty and short lives: nothing God-like there. So too, where my lucid-dreams lacking qualities that, compared to anecdotes given by NDE’s, LSD/mm or DMT psychonauts and /or Gurus, make them seem mundane; (although some of the lessons, like “how to fly” being an obvious one, were learned by instructions given in previous dreams). A dozen lucid-dreams does not generate enough evidence, for or against the hypothesis.

    I’m not done with UC yet.

    #29759

    mike
    Participant

    Funny you mention a rabbit because that may have had a lot to do with the experience at least this time.

    My sleep was disturbed. It was 4 am and one of my rabbits, who is real old and partially paralyzed in the hind-quarters, was in distress. So, I was sleeping in his room for the hour and a half before my alarm went off. Each of the six times I woke I was listening to see if he needed any help, and then used a mindfulness-meditation-technique to put myself to sleep: fast. It may have been that the “concentrate on your breathing” technique, normally used in that type of meditation to distract thoughts patterns, worked to achieve something like a transcendental experience.

    If that is the case, then the state of mind in a lucid-dream is the same state as what practitioners of meditation call “nirvana” …It sure felt enlightening and it was a place I could have stayed in all day. I have never had any success with meditation, (primarily because I only use it to fall asleep) but maybe all my lucid dreams, which stand apart from any normal dreams, are meditational successes.

    Maybe all my lucid-dreams (about a dozen) have come in the past during times I was sleep-disturbed and never knew it …at the very least they are a hell-of-a-lot-of-fun.

    #29589

    mike
    Participant

    Yes, good old Deepak…not on my list because he is a person who reasons with clever but fallacious arguments using the language of Physics to baffle with bullshit: the ultimate sophist. You can accuse me of that and I would accept the criticism as a “maybe”…because sophistry is sort of like day-dreaming out-loud…isn’t daydreaming allowed anymore?…

    For instance (everyone on the list influenced my thinking) but the reason I include Einstein is because his ideas stimulated an idea I “day-dreamed about”, that his cosmological constant (dark energy) may be the form consciousness takes in the cosmos…I latter retracted that bit of sophistry (although it is still in an article I wrote called “The Nature of the Universe”)…also Einstein introduced the photon concept and inspired the notion of wave–particle duality in quantum mechanics all of which are baffling Physicists to this day. And it is not out of the question that both of those constructs may fit in, somehow, with the Universal Consciousness.

    But mainly I included him because he, like me, did not believe in a personal God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings, a view which he described as naïve…he favoured the God of Baruch Spinoza’s (who I forgot to put on my list) philosophy which is God being “the nature of the universe” which has similarities to the Idealist position.

    #29587

    mike
    Participant

    First everything I propose here is based on years of digesting a vast array of podcasts, lectures, debates, studies and books. Nothing I am about to say comes from personal experience. I try to meditate, but never get anywhere…I try hallucinogens, but never enough to achieve a disconnect. I have never had a near-death experience(NDE). However, I am in a unique situation where I can gather huge collections of data and conceptually use a meta-analysis approach to combine the results from multiple sources, in-an-effort-to increase the power of individual ideas; improving estimates of effect and thereby resolving uncertainty when reports disagree: i.e. I have a good bullshit detector.

    So yes Jaklafort; I realize that this is a mouthful and hard to take in one gulp…but here it goes….it is my contention that consciousness is fundamental (outside space/time) in the cosmos. Space/time (where we are now, and all life and matter in all the galaxies resides) is an informational construct that our individuated consciousnesses bring into existence. Our neural anatomy simply provides a temporary home for our consciousness; to a greater or lesser degree in all organisms. When we die (or disconnect from our biological hardware) our consciousness re-establishes a connection with the Universal Consciousness U.C. and becomes aware, temporarily, that we are a very small part of a cosmological entity; some may think of as God, Source, or digital system, U.C., etc. Anyone can access this Universal Consciousness by disconnecting in all the ways I have already mentioned but Ayahuasca or NDE is a most reliable way to get there.

    And before you call me nasty names for proposing this, to be fair and not just dismissive, you would have to read a book or two and listen to a few key lectures, or do an Ayahuasca session. Needless-to-say, I am aware that in-order-to substantiate such a claim I would have to write a book or two. I only say this is what I have come to believe after spending years as a hard-core materialist. Now I can identify as a partial Idealist. Is it true??? Who knows…one day I will try Ayahuasca and let you know what I discover for myself.

    If you are interested… a partial list of relevant names (in no particular order or stature) of people that propose similar hypothesis, or have added key insights and/or evidence, follow… but I realize this list is overwhelming and not many have enough time or interest to listen to anything they have to say…regardless…
    Dr. Rupert Sheldrake
    Dr. Max Tegmark
    Prof. Philip Goff
    Dr. Donald Hoffman
    Prof. David Deutsch
    Dr. Antonio Damasio
    Dr. David Chalmers
    Dr. Dennis Mckenna
    Terrance Mckenna
    Dr. Christopher Bache
    Graham Hancock
    Dr. Eben Alexander
    Dr. Dean Radin
    Dr. Dawson Church
    Randall Carlson
    Dr. Albert Einstein
    Timothy Leary
    Dr. Tom Campbell
    Wim Hof
    Dr. Bruce Lipton
    Anil Seth
    Raymond Moody
    Gautama Buddha

    #29584

    mike
    Participant

    Somehow the main idea I was trying to convey was lost in the abyss of subjective experience. “Cognition and “religious”, “spiritual”, or “hallucinogenic” visions are to people like “air and breathing”. The history of theism is integral to Homo sapiens. The reason we evolved parallel to belief in a higher power is because of this weird ability of our brains to conjure up visions that are so real, so meaningfully complex, so unlike anything we are capable of inventing by our subjective imaginations that some people believe them to be “gifts” from the God/s.

    Picture our ancient ancestors, of 30,000 years ago, having an NDE or a hallucinogenic experience. Imagine how real a lucid dream or induced vision would seem to them. What mainstream theists and non-theist fail to see is that all our biblical and cultural myths are a result of this disconnect between brain and consciousness…let me state this clearly with examples…

    -the “sermon on the mount” was given after Jesus went off on a vision-quest induced by an age-old method of several days fasting…disconnect; and a little talk with Universal consciousness entity (God) and results are history.

    -repeated: John the Baptist induces NDE’s and hundreds “see the light” including Jesus.

    -Native Americans of all tribes throughout the world and throughout the ages, independently, pass down visions, given to them by Spirit Guides, explaining their entire historical culture; all brought to them by psychedelic experiences with hallucinogenic compounds.

    -Buddha goes off on an extreme meditation session (reaches out to nirvana) and has visionary experiences (lessons from the Source) that become his mainstream ideology.

    – Mohammed uses the starvation technique and receives the Quran from Gabriel.

    -Mosses “trips out” and sees a talking, burning bush teach him 10 commandments.

    -Dr. Christopher Bache uses 73 high doses of LSD and discovers the profound meaning of existence and the purpose of the universe.

    -Ayahuasca tea used for centuries, by Amazonian cultures as part of religious and healing ceremonies, to this day, allows us to speak with the Gods, (Universal Consciousness) and receive their revelations.

    Can you see the connection now? Are our legends, myths, religious teaching, inseparable products of over active imaginations…are these experiences to be seen as just subjective tricks of brain anatomy (atoms)…or… is it our communion with a fundamental Universal Consciousness that is seeding us with grandiose visions; whenever we induce this separation of our brain from our consciousness?

    #29575

    mike
    Participant

    Ok…very interesting…you have had more experiences of the disconnect sort than anyone I have talked to personally… so when I ask the following questions please be aware I seek only education and in no way am I refuting your experience. The point is then that they are not always reported as subjective…

    1: Have you heard about the experiences of Dr. Christopher Bache (If not please listen to The human experience Podcast: episode 147) High dose LSD research…

    2: How would you explain your brain conjuring up a universal truth? How did your cognition discover truths that are not in any way obvious and in everyway unique to anything you could make up. Please don’t say “an over-active imagination” (although I may accept that may be the only plausible explanation).

    3: Did you ever feel like you had died in one of your sessions (ego death) and were then instructed in an out of body sort of way?

    4: Terrance McKenna describes group sessions where more than one person experiences the same lessons and the same entities…that is no longer a “subjective” experience right?

    5: How would you explain countless examples of share NDE’s by patient and Doctors and nurses…they all see the “light” and report these non-subjective experiences independently.

    I wrote that in five minutes so (they may not be the best questions I could have asked) I have a lot more questions coming if you are willing to have your thoughts and experiences put under the microscope.

    #29572

    mike
    Participant

    Its easy to prove the existence of something in the cosmos that is referred to as God by the religious. Just take some DMT. Just do a high-dose acid-trip, (Dr. Christopher Bache) or over five grams of magic-mushrooms or peyote. Talk to a Shaman or a Guru: a practitioner of meditation who has achieved nirvana. Just ask the 100,000 people-per-year who have near-death experiences. Ask the doctors and nurses who are swept-up uncontrollably into the NDE of their patients against their will. Ask Natives who have gone on vision quests. Ask the scientists (Dr. Dean Radin or Dr. Tom Campbell) who study para-normal events. Ask the experimenters to explain the placebo-effect, whereby the mind creates an intention that alters its physical reality; much in common with prayer (believe it or not).
    What do all the above experiences have in common? Each individual has had a disconnect between the material-mind and consciousness. When the brain is made to go “off-line” consciousness can be experienced to exist outside of the brain. The brain is seen as a metaphorical receiver of what amounts to a conscious experience, thereby demonstrating the fundamental nature of consciousness.

    This ritual of incapacitating the link between brain and consciousness has been used for millennia to elucidate an experience that some malign as mere hallucinations. Historical examples abound, but one interesting one relates to Christianity and the practice of Baptism. John the Baptist would immerse his followers under the water and essentially drown them. Some disciples would be unrevivable after the experience, but John was proficient in his technique; immersing believers just long enough to initiate a near-death experience. “I have seen the light” would be a common phrase uttered during this life-changing event. This same light is described by all the above methods of disconnect.

    When separation occurs, the individual can be launched into a learning experience whereby entities, too complex to be made-up by an over active imagination, teach that our consciousness is part of a greater Universal Consciousness…better known as God to the religious, the Source to the spiritual, or the Universal Consciousness to Idealist, etc. The crazy thing in a “shared” DMT trip or a “shared” NDE is that both participants see the same entities and learn the same lessons. None of this evidence is new.

    René Descartes, Spinoza and Leibniz and even Einstein believed that the cosmos acts, as one might interpret as a God, if you lack a better word. We now know that outside of Space/Time a Universal Consciousness exists and all life in the cosmos is connected to this Being/God/Source/Creator/Digital system…we being a small pinched off experiential unit here on this small planet inside Space/Time. Do not deny it until you have taken the ”trip” yourself. But you can keep your position regardless…because we like your vibe.

    #28931

    mike
    Participant

    Thx… Its my new/original theory; but placing it within a fictional tale (even though I believe it to be more plausible than any other alien theory I’ve heard)…I like this technique. It allows you to say just about anything without having to fact check and has just enough reality and truth to make you wonder…

    Mike

    #24751

    mike
    Participant

    PopeBeanie wrote:

    “When does consciousness start is a big question”

    …apparently it starts with a quark… but becomes real obvious in a nervous system…

    Check out…

    http://www.deanradin.org/

    Dr. Dean Radin is the man to go to for any final word on the subject of consciousness…He is at the forefront of consciousness research…remember the double-slit-experiment/ observer effect…that’s him…His books are amazing…If you have time listen to him on, The consciousness podcast… https://theconsciousnesspodcast.com/

    He is on episode 13 but all the episodes are interesting

    #5959

    mike
    Participant

    “– you still haven’t said what it is that is changing: what property or aspect of consciousness goes up or down a continuum. Do you mean, more or less consciously aware, seen, known, identified, thought about.”

    In the above example, I have just listed half a dozen states of (changing) awareness = consciousness.
    Yes, I mean, more or less consciously aware, seen, known, identified, thought about…yes, all the above and the autonomic functions.

    These changes represent “higher functioning and lower functioning” states of awareness “along” a continuum, (implying an overlapping multiplicity of conscious states), not “up or down” a continuum (implying and elevator stopping at different floors).

    Try this…Take another breath. By saying, “I have control” and taking that breath, you have just identified two states of perceived consciousness. The first state (normal breathing) was autonomic (you didn’t have to concentrate to make it happen); however, it was still part of your conscious awareness. With a small change of awareness from a lower level (not thinking about it, but never-the-less aware of it with a slight change of cognitive perception) to one higher level (a slightly more aware state). The second state rises from the first autonomic state into a more aware state (suggesting a level, just slightly higher than the preceding state).

    Your perception and interpretation of the events described in the above (reading and getting frustrated) analogy is what is changing. These states of consciousness, or levels of conscious awareness drift closer and farther = higher and lower, toward a perception of greater or lessor control.

    This term “unconscious” might be tripping you up. It sounds like conscious awareness and unconscious awareness is, as you say, one in the light and the other in the dark. But “normal” states of your cognition = consciousness is not on a “light switch” that can be turned on and off, in a functioning brain…they are on a “dimmer switch”. Both states are, as you also say, “aware” only at differing levels of awareness. The light is sometimes dim and sometimes bright, and sometime “bright” and “dim” reside side by side: competing with each other.

    We are drifting in and out of conscious awareness all the time; (think about lucid dreams as an example of a lower level awareness, of an unconscious state). Meditation allows one to perceive the continuum and comprehend what you see as light and dark, as really being two of the same phenomena; connecting and overlapping autonomic functions (dark) with cognitive executive functions (light).

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  mike.
    #5956

    mike
    Participant

    “- I feel this idea is confused, because you haven’t said what defines one level as being different from another. “Lower” or “higher” in what way?”

    Ok, good point; please allow me to clarify.

    Think of a pond in your backyard. As you step in the level will go up, but will change to a lower level when you remove your wet foot. As well, the level is constantly rising and lowering based upon evaporation and condensation. In the same way your level of consciousness is always changing.

    Freud’s three levels are far too simplistic a model to describe the ever changing landscape of our conscious states. As you read this you might be concentrating on what you are reading at a very high level of awareness. A fly walks across the screen and you register its presence at a lower level, and swipe it away willfully; you blink autonomically but then decide, at a higher level, to close your tired eyes briefly and yawn. You scratch an itch on your nose that suddenly intrudes on your higher level. Your inner voice says, “I have no clue what this guy is talking about”. Disdain makes you a little angry, but its way down and barely recognizable as a conscious directive. Your heart beats all the while, and you become aware of it speeding up a little.

    In this example I have just listed half a dozen states of awareness, that drift to unawareness: levels of consciousness that, at times, are unconscious. Free will btw reside at some levels and not at others. Some states were intuitive and others intentional; some calculated, some chance; some considered, some casual; some deliberate, some spontaneous; some impulsive, some cautious. Each state resides along the continuum of consciousness levels.

    And maybe I should use the term states of conscious awareness instead… but I think it is too mainstream for what I am proposing.

    #5952

    mike
    Participant

    “As for bacterial consciousness, that’s a bit too far back for me to connect with.”

    Its not that really far back…yes my model suggest countless levels that go back to the original quantum particles that we are evolved from but…

    Perhaps connect this way…let me ask you the same question I asked Simon Paynton…

    At what stage does a sperm and egg become a conscious human? A sperm certainly has intent and is aware of it surroundings. It is easier to think of a sperm as having some low level of consciousness that multiplies, or rises to other levels, as it joins the egg and develops into a multi-cellular organism.

    Our development in nine months from a single cell to a conscious being is just a sped up version of our single-celled common ancestor needing a few billion years to evolve into a multi-cellular organism i.e. humanity. Some may have attained a multiplicity of ever increasing levels of consciousness that became us. Some evolved into organelles, that are now essential to our bodies.
    I am also wondering if you think it is too simple to state “intuitions or autonomic functions” are levels of consciousness?

    #5950

    mike
    Participant

    It is not that I want consciousness to have “levels”…there just are observable levels. It is a subjective observation, and it is useful only in that it allows us to view what we are not usually aware of, other than in our minds eye.

    “I can see that there are levels of conscious awareness”

    And I see that you agree too…

    so now look a little deeper. Try taking control of your breathing. By making a conscious decision to do so, you have just taken control of an function that is usually autonomic. You have brought a lower level to a higher level of awareness. If you successfully meditate you might be able to go even deeper and control your heart rate. If you go even deeper, you may be able to control certain disease processes…which is not so “out there” of an idea considering the effectiveness of placebos and positive thinking.

    “which I see as somewhat irrelevant”

    It would be relevant to those seeking greater awareness of self (mindfulness)

    “how can we think nice thoughts?”

    I hate to say it, because I have yet to try meditating… but meditation might answer this question also…look up “loving kindness meditation”

    #5921

    mike
    Participant

    Its all conjecture but I think my “levels of consciousness” theory holds some merit philosophers are not picking up on. We, however, might argue about the definition of consciousness. I take a broader philosophical view:
    “the mental faculties as characterized by thought, feelings, and volition”
    “the state of being awake and aware of one’s surroundings.”

    Those taking the view that “consciousness” requires “self-awareness” limits the ability to about a half dozen animals on earth. If your belief is that consciousness is limited to the size of an organisms neuronal net then this hypothesis I put forth is understandably mute in your mind and you could stop listening here.

    I just typed that in, for the first time, and discovered Freud had a similar idea to mine, but he divided consciousness into three levels. I also saw the Barrett Model which states: The Seven Levels Model describes the evolutionary development of human consciousness. There are certainly others but they are all limiting and ignoring the fact that the majority of what goes on in our bodies is not authored by the most evolved parts of our brain.

    My model suggest countless levels that go back to the original quantum particles that we are evolved from…and comes directly from states of awareness I recognize in myself, and these states are observable in other organisms.

    Can you deny that our white blood cell are not aware of the bacteria they engulf? How about the heart knowing when to pump blood faster or the liver releasing enzymes in response to disease, or a bacteria competing for space on our tongue. Ask yourself “when does a sperm and egg become a conscious human? It is easier to think of a sperm as having some level of consciousness that multiples or rises to other levels as the fetus develops in nine months. Similarly our single celled common ancestor needed a few billion years to become a multiplicity of exponentially increasing levels of consciousness.

    It is too simple to state intuition or autonomic function are not a levels of consciousness. “Information processing” is too broad of a term. It implies a level but one that goes right across the spectrum of levels, and does not always require the higher brain to process information acquired from its environment.

    Getting out of the human body sees all manner of organisms making decisions that require qualitatively different responses to stimulus. If we limit ourselves to thinking of consciousness as just being states of awareness that can be processed by our highest cognitive function we fall into the “faith” trap of thinking that we are so special as to be above base cognitive functions: just because we do not recognize them in our waking brain… not to mention base decision making processes of less evolved organisms all of which share a common ancestor.

    “I think this shows that the body is one big interconnected ecosystem, or factory, of processes and information.” …and organisms…yes, yes, that are all, to some extent, conscious…

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