Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[Unseen]

Antisemitism is on the rise around the world AGAIN, and Israel the state and Israel the oppressor would seem to be fanning the flames with its policies against its own Palestinian “citizens” as well as its stated intention to treat the Palestinian residents of the territory of Gaza to a genocidal response to Hamas’s recent terror attack.

The United States needs to be called out, too, for its consistent diplomatic support of and the assistance it provides to Israel.

[_Robert_]

Autumn wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

Death toll is a poor measure considering the fog of war. The intent of each warring faction is what matters.

The fog of war? No when you have a prolonged policy that accepts civilian deaths, those deaths are on your hands. Dressing it up in idealism doesn’t undo the barbarism of it.

Or is the death toll on the hands of Hamas? If they put down their arms, the killing stops. If Israel puts down its arms the real killing will begin. The idealism is all on the Hamas/Hezbollah side. It’s not like Islam is tolerant. As a transwoman your right to live your life is respected in Israel. Your right to live under Hamas is nil. I don’t understand the disconnect of so-called liberals vouching for the most repressive religious ideology ever. Every Islamic theocratic government villainizes and murders LGBTQ people, artists, musicians, atheists, free thinkers, etc. They can’t even finish a sentence without kissing god’s ass.

[Davis]

Robert this is an overly simplistic description of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. The occupied territories can see year upon year of relative peace, and yet the status quo never changes. Israel, even during the best of behaviour from Palestine keeps encroaching on their meagre territory and resources and applying brutal policies. At this point, Palestinian’s have no reason to believe that even full submission would result in change.

This doesn’t mean Hamas should massacre people (both morally and practically). But ending all resistance to the unspeakably unjust policies is also morally and practically the wrong thing to do. Both sides live in an unhappy status quo of antagonism and outrageous acts. Yet neither side has any motive to do differently, and from their perspective believes the only way forward is to behave unreasonably despite the bloody consequences.

[_Robert_]

Davis wrote:

Robert this is an overly simplistic description of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. The occupied territories can see year upon year of relative peace, and yet the status quo never changes. Israel, even during the best of behaviour from Palestine keeps encroaching on their meagre territory and resources and applying brutal policies. At this point, Palestinian’s have no reason to believe that even full submission would result in change. This doesn’t mean Hamas should massacre people (both morally and practically). But ending all resistance to the unspeakably unjust policies is also morally and practically the wrong thing to do. Both sides live in an unhappy status quo of antagonism and outrageous acts. Yet neither side has any motive to do differently, and from their perspective believes the only way forward is to behave unreasonably despite the bloody consequences.

It is very simple actually. Just look at Hamas’ charter. They are governed by Jihadists. What else can one say? They have to get rid of their leadership. It is a death cult. Do you see Israel using children as shields next to their weapons? Get leadership who wants a real-world solution and Israel will accept.

The Palestinians have had numerous chances over decades, and they answer with suicide bombers. Arafat really tried; and they just shit on him. Yes, the fundamentalists Jews are still building illegally. This is not good and has to stop and be reversed.

More moderate Arab countries don’t want the Jihadists either. Yep, there no room for them in the Muslim world anywhere, really?

 

[jakelafort]

Robert is correct.

As i have said repeatedly nothing has fundamentally changed in the middle east. I will keep it simple right here. Both Palestinians and Jews had legit claims to a state. The Arabs reject ANY form of compromise. They have always wanted one state. An Arab state. The recommendation by the Peel commission to give Jews 20 percent of the land in 1937 was not only rejected by Arab league but they had a shit fit. Later the UN resolution creating partition which would have given Jews 55 percent of the land but more crappy desert (because so many Jews were escaping European efforts to eradicate, murder all Jews and more were expected to come) in 1948 literally had Jews dancing the boogaloo in celebration. Two state solution? Lets dance bitch! A coalition of 5 Arab states attacked Jews immediately. No compromise. All or nothing Jew bastard!

Nothing has changed. Anti-semitism is as bad or worse now among Palestinians and the 23 states surrounding tiny Israel. It is institutionalized anti-semitism. Palestinians in Gaza utilizing Hamas as their power is so antithetical to their interests it is absurd. Yet the majority of Palestinians support Hamas. Same old shit. Kill all the Jews. Don’t get governance that will make peace and economic welfare the paramount objectives. That would be too sensible.

The blockade is a result of Palestinians having terrorists in control. They have to guard against weapons coming into Gaza. How much aid to Palestinians goes to food and basic necessities v. weapons? But all you ever hear/read is that it is Israel at fault. But it is not Israel alone. Egypt also has a blockade. Where is the condemnation against Egypt? How safe can Israelis feel when institutionalized antisemitism is the norm and surrounding Arab nations want you dead but pretend they care about the Palestinians. Palestinians have been treated like Joe Dirt in other Arab nations. But ya only hear about Jews and Palestinians. The Jordanians during the initial unprovoked attack on the brand spanking new Jewish state of Israel had a secret deal with the Jews. They favored the Jews in Israel over the Palestinians. The reaction of citizens as opposed to governments in the surrounding Arab nations is so utterly predictable. Out for blood not cuz they care about Palestinians but because they hate Jews.

Crying dodger blue for the Palestinians is such hypocritical nonsense. I am not arguing that is not a tragedy. That it is not real people who are suffering. It is the human comedy playing out on Shakespeare’s stage of life. One humanitarian crisis after another and all over the globe. Serbs and Croats. Darfur. Rwanda. Serbs and Croats. Turks and Armenians. Native Americans. Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Genocide in Bangladesh. Japanese in Nanking. The list just keeps going. And the reaction of the world is meeh…no big deal…how does that affect me.

Jews are under a microscope. The rest of the world gets a shitty telescope or even lacks an instrument to give a look-see. I have said it before but it bears repeating because it shows how little outsiders care about others unless their strings are moved by the influencers. When Obama was first campaigning for prez he brought up an African genocide (Rwanda i think) and in terms of foreign policy said USA should go in to stop it IF we get cooperation and consensus from our allies. How fucked up is that? And how much more that there was no outcry for the victims?

Muslims and Arab states do not hide their AJ hatred. The far left on the other hand is an influencer on public opinion. On the one hand they pretend to care about civil liberties and the values that decent people espouse like being against racism and yet they are racists as to Jews. Outstandingly racist. The right wing does not hide their hatred. The right is more primitive and transparent perhaps. So Protocols of the Elders of Zion, Nazism etc. It is in your face. Far left instead is bleeding dodger blue for the Palestinians who by any objective account share responsibility for their plight. Far left is focused on zionism. I cant imagine a more legit need for a state than Jews have. The endless drivel long after a state exists about whether it is a valid state. The hypocrisy! The way states have been created, conquering, murdering, implementing genocides, enslaving, exploiting, raping, taking natural resources and yet Zionism? That very rapacious might makes right MO is what caused Jews to need a state. A people who had thinkers way back in 1880s saying this antisemitism shit is getting old. This persecution aint kosher. We need a Jewish state where we can’t be persecuted and expelled. And how correct those original thinkers are. Yes there are Jewish dipshit lefites. Lots of em. Jews have traditionally been big supporters of civil rights and liberal causes which is only natural as a group that has been shit on upside down. Jewish orthodox who for stupid religious reasons not unlike evangelical christians who oppose Israel. The obsession with its right to exist is thinly veiled antisemitism.

None of this shit would have happened or continue to happen without antisemitism. The hatred is so great ya can’t cut it with a chainsaw.

[TheEncogitationer]

Fellow Unbelievers,

I have some personal business to take care of that may keep me busy for a while, but I’ll be back.

Meanwhile, the one who does my talking the best on this mentally and morally exhausting subject is Mystery Science Theatre 3000’s poor, tormented Tom Servo:

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

Do you see Israel using children as shields next to their weapons? Get leadership who wants a real-world solution and Israel will accept.

There’s more than one way to use one’s own as human “shields” (since no person is literally a shield in situations like this).

Hamas hides behind its own to either prevent retaliation or give themselves PR opportunities. By contrast, Israel uses protecting its own as cover for its heavyhanded policies of discrimination and oppression against people having nothing to do with Hamas.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.

[Unseen]

jakelafort wrote:

As i have said repeatedly nothing has fundamentally changed in the middle east. I will keep it simple right here. Both Palestinians and Jews had legit claims to a state. The Arabs reject ANY form of compromise. They have always wanted one state. An Arab state. The recommendation by the Peel commission to give Jews 20 percent of the land in 1937 was not only rejected by Arab league but they had a shit fit.

And what gave the Peel commission any sort of legitimacy? Peel doesn’t strike me as either an Israeli Arab OR Jewish name.

Prior to the creation of the state of Israel, Palestinian Arabs and Jews lived together in relative (to today) peace. Terror acts rare. They lived as neighbors, coworkers, ate together, babysat each other’s kids.

The U.N. is dedicated to peace. It has no business making countries and choosing winners and losers in a country it creates. Because it forgot or abandoned its charter and created Israel, it set in motion one of the most incendiary situations on the planet. One that could quite easily trigger WW3. One can also trace the rise of international anti-Jewish sentiment to that misstep as well.

Now, devout Jews believe God created the land of Israel for them, and the American evangelical movement agrees.

However, you are an atheist, so where does the right of a Jewish state to exist come from, Jake?

[_Robert_]

Unseen wrote:

jakelafort wrote:

As i have said repeatedly nothing has fundamentally changed in the middle east. I will keep it simple right here. Both Palestinians and Jews had legit claims to a state. The Arabs reject ANY form of compromise. They have always wanted one state. An Arab state. The recommendation by the Peel commission to give Jews 20 percent of the land in 1937 was not only rejected by Arab league but they had a shit fit.

And what gave the Peel commission any sort of legitimacy? Peel doesn’t strike me as either an Israeli Arab OR Jewish name. Prior to the creation of the state of Israel, Palestinian Arabs and Jews lived together in relative (to today) peace. Terror acts rare. They lived as neighbors, coworkers, ate together, babysat each other’s kids. The U.N. is dedicated to peace. It has no business making countries and choosing winners and losers in a country it creates. Because it forgot or abandoned its charter and created Israel, it set in motion one of the most incendiary situations on the planet. One that could quite easily trigger WW3. One can also trace the rise of international anti-Jewish sentiment to that misstep as well. Now, devout Jews believe God created the land of Israel for them, and the American evangelical movement agrees. However, you are an atheist, so where does the right of a Jewish state to exist come from, Jake?

You can have that argument about most countries in the world. Cultures come and go, and nations rise and fall. Colonial Europeans practically drew up the entire world map as it sits today. Israel is there and they are a serious force, so these Arab proxies need to get over it already and start to move on in a positive, non-self-destructive manner for a change.

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

Or is the death toll on the hands of Hamas?

Some of it.

If they put down their arms, the killing stops. If Israel puts down its arms the real killing will begin.

This recent wave of violence kicked off when IDF tear gassed Al-Aqsa Mosque. In the bigger scheme, territory expansion and military police are both ongoing forms of settler violence. So no, that wouldn’t just stop if Hamas or Palestinians in general laid down arms. That said, apart from those who promote the total abolition of Israel, I don’t think anyone is suggesting Israel disarm itself, just that it ceases its aggressions. This is not a one-sided war.

The idealism is all on the Hamas/Hezbollah side.

So Zionism isn’t ideological? Israeli people are just accidentally falling out of their own borders into Palestinian territories and can’t get back home? The entrenchment over holy sites is just a thing Muslims do?

As a transwoman your right to live your life is respected in Israel. Your right to live under Hamas is nil.

Irrelevant. I am not supporting Hamas neither am I supporting an Islamic state. How I feel about either has nothing to do with whether or not Palestinians should be stuck in the situation they’ve been trapped in for years, many of them since birth.

I don’t understand the disconnect of so-called liberals vouching for the most repressive religious ideology ever.

We’re not vouching for their ideology.

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

You can have that argument about most countries in the world. Cultures come and go, and nations rise and fall. Colonial Europeans practically drew up the entire world map as it sits today. Israel is there and they are a serious force, so these Arab proxies need to get over it already and start to move on in a positive, non-self-destructive manner for a change.

So, the Peel commission had no warrant to interfere. You implicitly agree with me there.

THEY (the “Arab proxies”) should get over it? First, they are proxies because the situation doesn’t apply to them directly. They are there doing that age old good deed of defending The Underdog.

And what are they supposed to get over? Would that include the ongoing abuse, oppression, and outright killing of their Arab brothers? Israel’s maintenance of an apartheid state? (Did you defend the white S. African apartheid goverrnment on similar grounds?)

Here, in a nutshell, is the story of Israel vs. Palestinians from an articulate Muslim’s POV:

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.

[Davis]

Yes antisemitism is a massive problem, yes politically Palestine is responsible for atrocious behaviour, no, none of this justifies the mountain of bullshit that comes out every day from Israel.

Jake you would not be washing over these decades of injustice from Istael and expect such brutal compromise from any other people in the world in any other context.

It is deranged to take a shit storm like Palestine/Israel and paint one side as the mostly good innocent hard done guys and the others as the uncompromising bad ones. Seriously? Neither side deserves either of those labels anymore than would any faction in Belfast, Beirut or the Balkans.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.

[Unseen]

There is no Hamas in a sense. It is a label for a movement consisting of factions and probably only one faction is in touch with Iran and receiving the weapons they used..

By contrast, Israel is an entire country and they are in the process of leveling their “outdoor prison” and anyone in it be they Hamas militants or just innocent civilians who can’t get out for one reason or another. And the ones who got out are dying of thirst and hunger and exposure (winter is coming on even in the Middle East.)

[jakelafort]

Davis you have some typos so i am not sure of everything you are saying.

Here is what i am saying a nutshell.

Jews are only human yet held to a higher standard than all other humans. I am not excusing the government of Israel from any of its wrongdoing. The main problem from within Israel comes from Orthodox Jews. The problems between Israel and middle east are a result of Jihad/antisemitism. The purported provocations or acts of wrongdoing by Israel are only a pretext for the middle east and those far left liberals who support Palestinians. They do not actually care about the Palestinians.

And yes i do think there is a fundamental difference between Israel and the middle east. It is a better culture. It is more modern and has greater individual rights for its citizens. You are freer to state your opinion and practice your personal superstitions. It contributes disproportionately to science and the arts. It has shown its willingness to compromise. It has been and continues to be under duress as a direct result of jihad and antisemitism. Had the Arabs not attacked immediately and continued to attack intermittently, had the Palestinians ended their death to all Jews that was their credo from the beginning, had they instead sought their own betterment economically they could have been trading partners with Israel and been free of any form of hegemony from the Israelis. The Palestinians within Israel could have attained greater political power. It is not easy to be a minority in a country and gain its trust where those outside of the country are bent on your annihilation.

In a philosophical sense ALL are victims of a biology that enabled us to crawl out of a state of nature, make great cultural advances, demonstrate the greatest compassion concomitantly dehumanize and exhibit the most callous cruelty on a frightening scale, be so utterly easily to lead and manipulate in both opinion and behavior. This applies to the most religious and ignorant as well as educated. If we look in the mirror we shall see the face of artificial intelligence.

[jakelafort]

Unseen, it is not easy to be reflective about oneself. But at some point in your endeavor to be controversial and stir up debate you keep reading tendentious trash to further your objective. Transgender issues, Russia/Ukraine and now Israel/Palestinians. (other issues to i assume) Do you find it alters your opinions? I bet it does.

[Author]

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