Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[jakelafort]

Here is an interesting conversation i encountered. Give it a listen. It even has some ideas in how to resolve the intractable.

[_Robert_]

When taking a rational view of the situation right now, moral justice doesn’t really win wars to gain territory. Never has, never will. The land I live on right now was stolen by the Spanish, who wiped out most of the native peoples via small battles and diseases. Britain gained control of the area in exchange for Havana, Cuba, which the British had captured from Spain during the Seven Years’ War. They eliminated the rest of the natives. Then the US Revolution happened and now I call this land my own.

There are obvious injustices perpetrated on the Arabs by the Zionists. Nobody will argue that. However, like all wars, someone will be the loser. The more the loser fights, the worse it will be for them. Does anyone think Hamas can win over Israel if Egypt, Jordan and Syria couldn’t beat them when Israel was not even as strong? Israel has the US and Europe backing; Hamas has Iran and Qatar.

So, forgetting about all the morality and just looking as “rational Palestinians”; they can keep on throwing rocks and shooting crappy rockets like this or they can elect a non-violent government and win their civil rights after many years of civil disobedience, the way Martin Luther King encouraged black Americans or the way Ghandhi did with the Indians vs Britain to gain self-governance. The world will come to their aid.

 

 

 

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

When taking a rational view of the situation right now, moral justice doesn’t really win wars or gain territory.

If you’re going to take a rational view then you have to factor in human psychology. Is Israel’s approach one that ends extremism? No. Is the approach of Palestinians one that gains freedom? No. If one side has to give, the reality seems to be that the Palestinians have nothing to give while Israel has little to no motive to give.

[Unseen]

@ Jake

That post about me was kind of a tie between a garden variety ad hominem and poisoning the well.

I stand with many highly respected thinkers who have criticized Israel over it’s actions and policies regarding the Palestinians:

Numerous individuals, scholars, and public figures from various backgrounds have criticized Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians over the years. Here are several major thinkers and prominent figures who have expressed criticism in this regard:

Noam Chomsky: Noam Chomsky, a linguist, philosopher, and political commentator, has been a vocal critic of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians. He has written extensively on the subject.

Edward Said: The late Edward Said, a Palestinian-American intellectual, was a prominent critic of the Israeli occupation and its portrayal in Western media. His book “Orientalism” is considered a seminal work in post-colonial studies.

Norman Finkelstein: Finkelstein is a political scientist and author known for his critical stance on Israel’s policies, particularly with regard to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. He has written books like “The Holocaust Industry.”

Ilan Pappé: Ilan Pappé, an Israeli historian, is known for his research on the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and his criticism of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. He has written extensively on the subject.

Sara Roy: An American political economist, Sara Roy has conducted extensive research on the economic and humanitarian situation in Gaza and the West Bank. She has been critical of Israel’s policies in the region.

Rashid Khalidi: A Palestinian-American historian, Rashid Khalidi has written numerous books and articles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, offering a critical perspective on Israeli policies and their impact.

Jimmy Carter: Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter has been a critic of Israel’s settlement policies and has called for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Angela Davis: The American political activist and scholar has been involved in various social justice causes, including advocating for Palestinian rights and criticizing Israeli policies.

Roger Waters: The co-founder of the rock band Pink Floyd has been an outspoken critic of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and has been involved in the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement.

Desmond Tutu: The South African Archbishop and Nobel laureate has drawn parallels between the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and apartheid in South Africa, leading to criticism of Israeli policies.

(Thank you ChatGPT)

[_Robert_]

Autumn wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

When taking a rational view of the situation right now, moral justice doesn’t really win wars or gain territory.

If you’re going to take a rational view then you have to factor in human psychology. Is Israel’s approach one that ends extremism? No. Is the approach of Palestinians one that gains freedom? No. If one side has to give, the reality seems to be that the Palestinians have nothing to give while Israel has little to no motive to give.

Israel gains peace and Palestinians will gain true autonomy if the Palestinians take the peaceful, high road and stay with it. Israel would experience pressure from the entire world to ease up on all the sanctions that keep the Palestinians in a state of paralysis.

[_Robert_]

Oh, BTW, I have read that many Israelis think Netanyahu does ” support Hamas” indirectly as their actions do bolster support for his shitty politics. If true, that would be so pathetic.

[jakelafort]

Unseen,

You have told us how you play this game. I am not saying it is wrong. Apparently you think it is wrong. I was only curious if it changes your opinions. Legit question, no?

Giving a list of names of people who hold opinions you have adopted or share is an argument from popularity. Poisoning the well? Well we know who is responsible for that.

[Unseen]

@ Jake

Everything potentially changes my opinions. It’s called being open-minded. For example, a little open-mindedness helped to change my mind from neutrality about horse racing to believing it’s animal abuse for the mere entertainment of humans.

A partisan is someone who is committed to one side or the other. My commitment is not to a side but to humanistic principles. I don’t feel any kinship at all with Hamas and even less so for the government of Israel. If I’m partisan at all, it’s on behalf of the innocents on both sides. Hamas is responsible for killing innocent Israeli civilians in one sudden attack, whereas Israel has been inflicting suffering, horror, and death on Palestinians daily for decades.

I’ve also noted the obvious: It all goes back to the original sin, which is the creation of Israel on land that was once shared between the Arabs and Jews living there. The U.N. should have stayed with its charter of promoting peace, not handing out real estate.

From then forward, Israel was essentially given the right by the U.N. to treat the Arabs as subjects more than citizens, to be moved about like pawns at the convenience of the Israeli government.

[Unseen]

jakelafort wrote:

Giving a list of names of people who hold opinions you have adopted or share is an argument from popularity. Poisoning the well? Well we know who is responsible for that.

Offering a list of deep thinkers opposed to Israel’s mistreatment of Palestinian civilians isn’t an argument from popularity. It’s an offering of evidence that you don’t have to be a tendentious person to value the lives of Palestinian civilians.

If Israel goes ahead with a Trumpistic “If they hit us, we hit them 10 times harder” kind of response, it won’t make the highly dangerous situation in the area any better.

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

Israel gains peace and Palestinians will gain true autonomy if the Palestinians take the peaceful, high road and stay with it. Israel would experience pressure from the entire world to ease up on all the sanctions that keep the Palestinians in a state of paralysis.

Speaking as someone on the outside looking in, I agree. In this case I meant it more in the sense that Israel doesn’t have to budge or back because Palestinians can’t do much to them and don’t have any bargaining power even with some measure of external support. If Israel wants to keep going the way it has, who is going to do much more than shake a fist at them? Even this recent attack, to my understanding, still fit within Israel’s risk assessment. I could be wrong on that, though.

[Davis]

Jake, couldn’t agree more that Israel, in general is a more ideal place to live in terms of freedoms and democracies, if you are a mostly white Jewish person, than neighbouring countries (if you are anything else). I certainly admire what they have accomplished all things considered. But then, Israel wasn’t colonised by western powers. A massive percentage of the population imported Western ideas, wealth and have the vast support of powerful and rich Western nations. It is, actually, miraculous that it is a mostly secular state. Hats off to Israel. As a white non-Muslim gay Westerner who will be treated reasonably if I were to move there, would rather live in Tel-Aviv than in Damascus or Amman. To be honest though, wouldn’t live anywhere in the area.

Hats off to Israel. None of this justifies the endless pile of barbarous policies that Israel commits against Palestinians, even during relatively long stretches of peaceful behaviour. Or even labelling Israel more admirable in the conflict or less culpable for their crimes. It’s no different with America (seriously), one of the most successful nation building miracles in all of history, still full of unspeakable injustices and an outrageous foreign policy committing atrocities around the world all the time. I can admire a nations achievements (especially what the privileged enjoy in that nation) whilst being appalled by the treatment of marginalised people within in and the completely inexcusable way they brutalise and victimise people in other nations (or ones they occupy). I would like to think I am capable, of divorcing myself, even from the groups or nations that I belong to, and be capable of objectively, to a reasonable degree, pointing out the unjustifiable and not applying double standards.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

Israel gains peace and Palestinians will gain true autonomy if the Palestinians take the peaceful, high road and stay with it. Israel would experience pressure from the entire world to ease up on all the sanctions that keep the Palestinians in a state of paralysis.

You seem to be equating Hamas with the Palestinians. They are a terrorist organization capable of terrorizing the Palestinians as well as the Israelis.

Half of all Palestinians are minors, 16 or younger. Not even old enough to vote in much of the developed world. When Israel bombs Gaza, it’s killing Palestinians, half the time, most of the world would regard as children.

[Unseen]

 

[—]

Autumn wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

Israel gains peace and Palestinians will gain true autonomy if the Palestinians take the peaceful, high road and stay with it.

Speaking as someone on the outside looking in, I agree.

For some reason I misread that. I thought you said if Israel takes the peaceful high road. While an end to extremism is desirable, of course, Palestine has no road to take right now. Israel is the power with most means to actually effect change. As a start, they can stop the encroachment at a bare minimum.

[_Robert_]

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet. Palestinians would receive aid and support from virtually every liberal nation. Plus, there would be songs and concerts, food drives, peace flags, tee-shirts and they would ultimately achieve autonomy from Israel.

That IS what they want, RIGHT? LOL.

 

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