Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[UnseenParticipant]

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Robert,

I just wanted to let you know that you’re doing a wonderful thankless Yeoman’s job making the case in defense of Israel’s fight against the Islamofascists of Hamas…

But forget it! It’s Alzheimer’s Geezer-Town! Someone left the computer room open at the care facility! What’s worse, not every inmate is elderly!

We’ll just have to wait it out until the sedatives kick in, 😉😁

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Enco

Okay, if you’re done with that cheap and vulgar outburst, tell me this: Would Israel be so brutal and indiscriminate and inhumane if Hamas were operating inside Israel itself? Would it hit ambulances with missiles, level apartment blocks, order its population to leave their homes and trek to a far corner of the country?

I think I know. Don’t you?

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

“Vulgar.” It’s been a while since I’ve heard that one. 😁

I thought that one was exclusive to scold-y Church Ladies.

I never thought it would come at me from some Postmodern Everything-is-Everything-Until-I-Say-Otherwise Mass Murder Shill.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

I’m fondly reminded of this scene from Star Trek: The Next Generation with your quaint verbiage (Fast forward to 2:26-2:51)

To answer your question above, the Israeli Defense Force would avoid civilian casualties anywhere if Hamas got the fuck out from behind human shield civilians and fought like real warriors. How’s that for “vulgar?”

By the bye, aren’t you engaged in self-contradiction by both condemning the U.N. for allegedly creating Israel and simultaneously upholding U.N. International Accords against war crimes and genocide? (And, another by the bye, calling for the destruction of a nation is genocide.) Cognitive coherence is not your strong suit, is it?

How do you like my idea of Zionism (which I call Zionism Plus?):

As long as there is mixing of labor with unclaimed or artificially-created real estate and possession of good title, as long as there is purchasing of such real estate with good title, or as long as there is renting from such a real estate owner with good title, then every Jew, every Arab, and every Individual of every heritage, background, creed, or non-creed has an Individual Property Right to live where the fuck he/she/xe/xr/it pleases.

This means Arabs can have a right to live in Israel, Jews can have a right to live in Palestine, and both and still other third parties can live on man-made coral islands or offshore platforms, under their own fig tree, under their own umbrella, or even in the briar patch you were borned and raised in if you’re Br’er Rabbit! 🐰🐻🦊

Sounds like a weiner to me and I’d love to practice Zionism Plus on a place of my own one day, if I’m not vaporized by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or others wanting glow-in-the-dark play-purties. Hamas is making my prospects look bad.

[DavisModerator]

Robert,

Your stance on Palestine is so extreme, so brazenly Islamophobic, so utterly dehumanising and cold blooded it is disturbing. You simply cannot cast mass blame on an entire people and justify the excessive rampage by Israeli forces, regardless of the circumstances. You don’t mind them being crushed like little ants because they are non-white muslims. If there were guerilla fighters attacking the US from Canada, I doubt you would support US forces utterly flattening all of downtown Toronto to take out a few dozen guerilla leaders killing thousands of non-Muslim white people, including babies and hundreds who had nothing to do with the guerilla fighters, policies or ideologies.

It simply cannot come from anywhere other than bigotry. I simply call out your bigoted driven dehumanisation of Palestinians. Take a step back.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Davis your hypothetical is a big stretch. “I doubt you would support US forces utterly flattening all of downtown Toronto to take out a few dozen guerilla leaders killing thousands of non-Muslim white people, including babies and hundreds who had nothing to do with the guerilla fighters, policies or ideologies.”

Canada would help apprehend the few dozen guerillas. Palestinians sacrifice their lives for the guerillas. Palestinians elected the leaders of the attack and according to reports not verified participated in the attack and taking & secreting of hostages. Palestinians and peoples of surrounding nations have from the outset opposed the state of Israel and in large numbers would like every Jew dead. Palestinians and peoples of surrounding nations are fed a steady diet of religiously, culturally and state sponsored antisemitism. It is so virulent that the texts ought to be read instead of understanding it abstractly. Canadians are run of the mill antisemites. There is a world of difference. The state of Israel has been attacked over and over with the goal of eliminating Israel and its people. It is not some two bit operation manned by separatists or a few extremists. The hypothetical attack on US would not threaten its existence.

And where i disagree in Russia/Ukraine a sign of weakness encourages the aggressor or necessarily does that oft cited Chamberlain/Hitler dynamic is very much in play. Jews have a history of passivity and it has not led to anything good for Jews. Arabs have to be crystal clear what is coming when Israel is attacked.

War is hell. The failure of humans to do anything to change the trajectory of history is reprehensible. The inevitable dehumanization of the enemy is an aspect of war that is unavoidable until wars end which will be the last day of civilization. There are always innocent victims. So many victims. Where are the CLEAN wars? One of the reasons i favored a settlement in Ukraine is the inevitable war crimes that would follow; torture, targeting civilians, raping, and all of the carnage of war.

When we talk about wars & geopolitical issues lives of humans are always minimized. It is like generals who have caused troops to die in hopeless sieges and lost causes. Human fodder.

So yes so many Palestinian innocents. I wonder if it is comforting the belief that paradise awaits the martyrs. Israelis expediting the mystical process.

[UnseenParticipant]

@ Enco

Even more ad hominem in lieu of meaningful discourse. Expected, of course.

“Mass murder shill”? An apt description of Netanyahu

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

To answer your question above, the Israeli Defense Force would avoid civilian casualties anywhere if Hamas got the fuck out from behind human shield civilians and fought like real warriors. How’s that for “vulgar?”

It had a yes or no answer. I think we all know Netanyahu and his government would be far more delicate if their own Jewish and fully human non-“animal” civilians were at risk.

By the bye, aren’t you engaged in self-contradiction by both condemning the U.N. for allegedly creating Israel and simultaneously upholding U.N. International Accords against war crimes and genocide? (And, another by the bye, calling for the destruction of a nation is genocide.) Cognitive coherence is not your strong suit, is it?

You actually think I need to refer to the U.N. (which I don’t think I did) to decry inhuman behavior and genocide? Hmm… Do you?

As far as your Zionism Plus nonsense, the idea of titles came along with Europeans, I believe. Similar to the way our West was one. We drove the Indians off on the theory at first that who owns the land depends upon who can secure it (who needs titles?). Titles come along, conveniently, once western traditions take over. Prior to U.N. interference, the land belonged to you by living on it and working it. Legal systems for allocating land ownership are better than, basically, “squatter’s rights”-style ownership. However, the new legal system should recognize the rights of those who have been living on the land and work that ownership into the system. Instead, the Palestinians were treated like U.N. and then Israeli chattels.

BTW, I have a counter video to yours:

 

[UnseenParticipant]

jakelafort wrote:

Canada would help apprehend the few dozen guerillas. Palestinians sacrifice their lives for the guerillas. Palestinians elected the leaders of the attack and according to reports not verified participated in the attack and taking & secreting of hostages. Palestinians and peoples of surrounding nations have from the outset opposed the state of Israel and in large numbers would like every Jew dead. Palestinians and peoples of surrounding nations are fed a steady diet of religiously, culturally and state sponsored antisemitism. It is so virulent that the texts ought to be read instead of understanding it abstractly. Canadians are run of the mill antisemites. There is a world of difference. The state of Israel has been attacked over and over with the goal of eliminating Israel and its people. It is not some two bit operation manned by separatists or a few extremists. The hypothetical attack on US would not threaten its existence.

You and other fanatical pro-Israelis have dehumanized Palestinians to the point where when you discuss this sort of thing, you just stereotypically refer to “Palestinians” as though they are a monolithic bloc. It’s not “some Palestinians,” “many Palestinians,” or even “most Palestinians,” but rather an implied “all Palestinians.”

Half of all Palestinians are minors, BTW, and we grant only limited ability to children to form opinions, so they need to be left out of any description of Palestinian attitudes.

This brief video by Yanis Varoufakis summarizes my view on the situation, and I won’t fall into the trap of criticizing Hamas, which is not to approve of their attack, either. My refusal is based on resisting the simplifying of the situation in the way the mainstream media and our national governments in the West do it.

Stop criticizing those who look beyond the most recent Hamas military operation figure out WHY it happened and WHAT, other than indescriminately murdering Palestinians, might give peace in the region some chance of coming about.

[—Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

War is hell. The failure of humans to do anything to change the trajectory of history is reprehensible. The inevitable dehumanization of the enemy is an aspect of war that is unavoidable until wars end which will be the last day of civilization.

The thing is, we here on this side of the pond aren’t in this war. We’re third-party observers. While there is some understanding of how Israelis and Palestinians become entrenched in views that dehumanize, it doesn’t make sense why we reduce Palestinians to cartoon characters or show a shocking indifference and make endless excuses for the expendability with which innocent lives are treated.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Davis,

Ackshuyally, according to U.S. Immigration Law, Arabs and Persians are classified as “White” and Muslims can be of any arbitrary racial or ethnic classification. And Arab Muslims were the brokers in the Transatlantic Slave Trade going between African Animist Kings and European Christians. And Arab Muslims still engage in Sub-Saharan African slavery in Mali, Mauritius, Mauritania, Sudan, and elsewhere.

Kinda fucks up your whole Intersectional Oppression Narrative doesn’t it?

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Going round and round with you is indeed bananas. And unlike this so-called “meaningful dialogue,” at least Peanut Butter and Jelly is nutritious and life-affirming.

Again, go join all of your terrorist apologists in the bocce ball fire-ant field!

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Again, go join all of your terrorist apologists in the bocce ball fire-ant field!

Once again, it’s if you’re open-minded enough to look at the apartheid state of Israel and the concentration camp* it operates, you must be cheering Hamas on. We can’t talk to each other with that sort of black/white either/or falsely dichotomous thinking.

The situation is complex and plopping down firmly on Israel’s side is to accept the pap the politicians on the take and the military-industrial complex want us to think. If Israel was buying their war materiel from Russia or China do you really think we’d be backing their criminal activities with this degree of enthusiasm?

Like Yanis Varoufakis, I see the situation as the overweening pride of the West coming home to roost. Hamas did something extreme out of frustration. The Palestinians have legitimate complaints against Israel, but Israel is incapable of dealing with the Palestinians, starting with the fact that unlike any other country on Earth that I’m aware of, it defines itself in terms of being pure in race, requiring an eternal Jewish majority.

* or “open air prison” if you prefer.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Unseen.

[UnseenParticipant]

Two retired military men with interesting views on the situation.

Col. Douglas Macgregor, retired, is a highly respected and accomplished military commander and author. He was the main strategist of the Battle of 23 Easting, one of if not the most important tank-on-tank battle of the Iraq War.

He says unless we save Israel from itself, it will die.

Scott Ritter, a retired Iran nuclear arms inspector, who until recently supported Israel, explains why he changed his mind as well as the poor prospects of Israel snuffing out Hamas.

[Author]

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