Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[Unseen]

Everywhere you look, news sources summarize the history of Palestine from a Western Judeo-Christian perspective. How about a view from a Muslim source. Al Jazeera, despite being funded/operated by Qatar, is generally regarded as a well-balanced slightly left-leaning news source. What it takes pains to do is to take issue with the commonly-heard notion that there’s no such thing as a Palestinian or a Palestinian homeland, a native Palestinian culture, or that Palestinians are even a people.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.

[Unseen]

Hamas is a child of Israel/Netanyahu. (Video should start at about 1:40. If not, then move the slider there and start.)

[Davis]

Nah Jake. You’re just parroting dehumanising drivel. Canada would act differently [because they are more civilised white people]. Palestinians are collectively responsible (including babies) for Hamas. War is hell. Of course it is. That is no excuse for reprehensible behaviour anymore than say, the fact that you are operating in the business world is an excuse to greedily do anything to immorally bleed people dry, nor the fact that you are in the dating world is a reason to justify highly manipulative and exploitative behaviour against a dating victim.

Viewing the enemy as the “other” is one thing. Dehumanising them to the point that you justify any ghastly and unjustifiable/disproportionate treatment of them is another. As I have said before, this level of dehumanising people, is the seeds of thinking that led to the slavery of black people, the holocaust itself, vile sectarian rampages in India and many other untold miseries.

The Israeli rampage is utterly unjustifiable. It is beyond any reasonable proportionate response to the, as I have said before, equally reprehensible Hamas attacks. No objective analysis of this rampage would describe it as anything other than an over the top, barbaric, pointlessly homicidal rampage. It is only justifiable through bigoted dehumanisation. Just admit it.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.
• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.

[jakelafort]

“Nah Jake. You’re just parroting dehumanising drivel.”

No Davis you are responding to a narrative on the other side of the ideological divide as opposed to responding to me. Your hypothetical is inapposite. Just admit it. You’ve superimposed onto me arguments that make you sick. That is my guess. I think you did the same thing with Robert and ascribing racial animus where none exists.

Failing to contextualize how we characterize conflicts is a mistake. You know Canadians would be aghast and support the apprehension and elimination of such a hypothetical group. Further, you know that Palestinians and Arabs in surrounding countries are sympathetic to objectives of Hamas and celebrating the brutality in the surprise attack for religious and anti-Jewish reasons.

I have neither thought nor written anything dehumanizing Palestinians.

Is the Israeli response reasonable. Judged in a vacuum clearly NO. Judged through the lens of history and in relation to other wars yes.

[Davis]

Judged through the lens of history and in relation to other wars yes.

No. The only way you can arrive at the unjustifiable is through dehumanising others. Admit it.

[Davis]

You know Canadians would be aghast and support the apprehension and elimination of such a hypothetical group.

A couple decades change people very fast. Russians are very sympathetic to the barbaric behaviour of Russian troops. Being a mostly white western people doesn’t make them inherently “civilised”. We could easily transpose ourselves to Belfast. I doubt Robert would have supported levelling white Christian Belfast neighbourhoods to catch IRA bombers. Context would be irrelevant. Of course, unless we sufficiently dehumanised Catholics in Northern Ireland, in which case, yeah, a barbaric disproportionate rampage including pointlessly killing thousands of civilians because “cough cough” ehhh “context” would be justified.

Further, you know that Palestinians and Arabs in surrounding countries are sympathetic to objectives of Hamas and celebrating the brutality in the surprise attack for religious and anti-Jewish reasons.

Gross extreme overgeneralisation. You would not appreciate me saying that Israel and some of their Western Allies are extremist bent on an imperialistic religious based extermination of Palestinians, wish perpetual domination over Palestinians and enjoy brutalising their occupied victims. That would come from a bigoted overgeneralisation, anti-Semitic vile dehumanising view of Israelis. Maybe don’t do the same to Palestinians and Arab neighbours.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.

[—]

Davis wrote:

You know Canadians would be aghast and support the apprehension and elimination of such a hypothetical group.

A couple decades change people very fast. Russians are very sympathetic to the barbaric behaviour of Russian troops. Being a mostly white western people doesn’t make them inherently “civilised”.

Realistically, Canadian mindsets are shaped more by the political and economic stability that comes with peaceful relations rather than any high-minded ideals. After 9-11, it didn’t take many of us very long to show ourselves for the violent, xenophobic, war mongering fuckheads we are. Honestly, countries none of us had thought of since the 80s were suddenly the enemy again when hardly any of us could find Afghanistan or Iraq on a map and few really knew what connection, if any, the war had to anti-terrorism. And it was easy to romanticize the slaughter of ‘over there’ people because unlike Americans, we stand little to gain from viewing people in many parts of the world as people. The reality is, we will use the thinnest of pretexts to commit to violence when the mood for it is right. We’re privileged far more than enlightened.

[jakelafort]

Davis do you know what is timeless?

Antisemitism. The ridiculous conspiracy theories. The world’s scapegoats for every imaginable tragedy. The virulent lies from depths of history. The far left embracing the memes and tropes with saturated scopes and the audience gobbling it up like it is prepared by the finest chefs. The aftermath of the Hamas attacks in dredging latent antisemitism to the surface is even worse than i would have guessed. Support of Palestinian victims is directed by the far left. Support of Israel is directed by the far right. Well support of Palestinian victims is not phony in terms of the sentiments felt and the genuine hate that gushes for Israel/Jews. It is more hypocrisy than anything else. The Palestinians victims of states more closely identified with apartheid than Israel and yet no expression of sympathy or condemnation of the Arab states oppressing Palestinians. It is just ridiculous. So many victims of oppression and victims in war and nothing is expressed or felt in their behalf. If the ideologues leading the sheep do not point the scope then the victimization is a tree in a forest that falls without an audience.

Yes of course you have to contextualize a conflict or war. The fire bombing of Dresden was atrocious. It was ACTUAL INTENTIONAL terror and murder of civilians. But Germany was seeking world domination. Germans were overwhelmingly supportive of the Nazi regime. So it has to be understood in that light. And any examination of the act that simply condemned the horror that was intentionally rained down without that context is not properly understood.

The other thing that is timeless is how easily led humans are. Pitbulls on a bone saliva emanating from their pie holes safeguarding their world view and ideologies. I wish the good sentiments of liberalism were without the ideological damage. Good causes are polluted by BS. Everything has to turn into a religion. Stick with the narrative or be shunned. Moronic university students parroting the new bibles of liberalism. Supporting intolerance while fighting intolerance. How sad that Islam is respected and accommodated by well intentioned left leaners. For that matter all western religion ought to be opposed and decried for what it is and what it does. Jews who have led fights for civil rights are discriminated against by the left even when they are aligned with the left and condemn Israel’s government and support Palestinians. Fight racism by becoming racists.

“Further, you know that Palestinians and Arabs in surrounding countries are sympathetic to objectives of Hamas and celebrating the brutality in the surprise attack for religious and anti-Jewish reasons.”

I would be shocked if you are correct. It would be cool if it were not so. But if and when polls are taken, widespread polls, i think you will find my assessment is correct.

“Gross extreme overgeneralisation. You would not appreciate me saying that Israel and some of their Western Allies are extremist bent on an imperialistic religious based extermination of Palestinians, wish perpetual domination over Palestinians and enjoy brutalising their occupied victims. That would come from a bigoted overgeneralisation, anti-Semitic vile dehumanising view of Israelis. Maybe don’t do the same to Palestinians and Arab neighbours.”

Where do you suppose Jihad is derived? Where do you suppose the endless blood spilled in the Crusades by both Christians and Muslims is derived? Isn’t it noteworthy how you so often hear Jews are in Israel for religious reasons but silence as to intentions of Muslim Arabs in why they want that land? If Jews wanted to exterminate Palestinians they would have. I am sure there are Jews who would want to brutalize their attackers. Revenge is a universal.

The problem is People who are in cults. From Israel the orthodox Jews are a problem in taking land from Palestinians. In the Palestinian territories and Arab states an endless wellspring of hatred that never gets called out but insures the vicious cycles of attack and defense and attacks. I think the putative provocations however are meaningless. When the Israelis withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and forcibly removed the 9000 Jews the Gazans destroyed the synagogues, lobbed rockets and elected Hamas. Aid for Palestinians becomes aid for destroy Israel. Kill Jews. The mindset of destroy Israel and kill the Jews persists and won’t go away as long as Islam is king shit.

[Davis]

Nothing in your reply signals anything other than justification for a dehumanising view of Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims. Yes, anti-semitism is rife, timeless and a serious problem. Totally agree with you. Disappointed by your own bigotry Jake.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jake,

Maybe the Wokester Progressive types would be less sympathetic to Hamas if it were revealed that the Hamas underground tunnels had miniature halal chicken ranches…vhere zee animals are to be BRED UND SLAUGHTERED!!!

Dr. Strangelove–Peter Sellers–“An Astonishingly Good Idea”

Und “ten women to every man?” Ach du Lieber! Those tunnels are awash in Heterosexism, testosterone, male gaze, and objectification!!!♀️♀️♀️♀️♀️ ♂️♀️♀️♀️♀️♀️😁

[Davis]

Maybe the Wokester Progressive types would be less sympathetic to Hamas if it were revealed that the Hamas underground tunnels had miniature halal chicken ranches…vhere zee animals are to be BRED UND SLAUGHTERED!!!

Nope. Nice try Enco. Another one of your standard strawmen. No one here is sympathetic to Hamas. No one condones what they have done (though one member does try to explain context a little too much on the Hamas side).
You can simultaneously disagree with everything Hamas does and stand for and be absolutely horrified by the excessive murderous Israeli rampage in response. They are not incompatible. I think it utterly absurd to (rightly) complain about dehumanising bigotry, while at the very same time participating in dehumanising bigotry.

[_Robert_]

Yep, Jake is correct. Such contempt for a tiny minority that frequently succeeds to thrive regardless.

Palestinians indoctrinate and ‘radicalize’ their children to hate and thus must take responsibility for their current situation. And by radicalize, I mean they follow their religion as written. If you are hateful enough to allow rocket launches aimed at civilian targets from your girl-scout camp; you have dehumanized yourselves. To put this into perspective for Israel, the Oct 7 attack, when normalized to the US population equates to 42,000 dead and thousands of hostages taken. Twenty times worse than 9/11.

Islam has its primary goal to spread that religion by violence, when deceit does not work. It is clearly stated, over and over. They rely of the kindness of liberals to wedge that bullshit from the dark-ages into liberal societies that took thousands of years to reach aspirations such as freedom of expression, liberation of women, the recognition of gender identity, secular law, sexual preferences, etc. All of these achievements; they despise.

 

[jakelafort]

Davis there is no dehumanization coming from this quarter. Islam is the agent of dehumanization. If you took Jewish babies and stuck em in Gaza or West Bank and raised in that environment they would be indistinguishable from the rank and file of Palestinian Muslims. They would have all the same sentiments.

If the cult were insignificant say a thousand cultists and one head of the cult then the west would be hostile to the cult, sympathetic to its victims and offer succor and ways to deprogram. Islam is massive, has in its grips a big slice of humanity. And yet the west gives it license to continue to oppress. How many women? Gays? Transgenders? Children? other impure? are fucked over by the cult?

The west is beginning to pay for its lack of discrimination. The welcome wagon to cultists has consequences. And you could have guessed for the hosts that nativism and xenophobia and all those sentiments would be the resultant.

In terms of how we evaluate the horror of the killing of civilians who are innocent in Gaza it is a really tough issue. But it can’t rightly be examined in a vacuum. Your hypothetical Canada to USA is not close enough to be probative. The historical horror show i already adduced is not on all fours but it is a lot closer. Yes innocent civilians but the allied bombing was a product of the dehumanization that was started by the Germans and Japanese. It was a war of utter brutality and senseless violence. No question in my mind it was personal and retribution was part of the motive as opposed to military strategy. Juxtapose that to a hypothetical like the insane N. Korean dictator launching nucs at some European cities out of the blue cuz a journalist said some critical shit about his regime that got leaked to the populace. Nobody in their right mind would have any positive sentiments or understanding.

To simplify the context of the current issue you have an ethnic group that has withstood unimaginable persecution all over the globe. In the wake of that persecution a holocaust, the culmination and without the allies prevailing the extermination was probably going to be utter, that caused large numbers of survivors who wanted never again to be asked the terrifying question, Vere are your papahs, seeking a Jewish state of their own free of the racism, discrimination, pogroms, being exiled and assorted fuckovers.

Concomitantly Arabs who had been fucked over and never even had a state were feeling the nationalism that swept the region and also resulted in bloody wars in India. Both Jews and Arabs had legit bases and justification for desperately wanting a state. Jews said Haylaluyaaaaaaaaaaaa when the deal was promised. Palestinians and Arabs attacked. Israel has been under siege ever since withstanding various attacks from Arab nations and terrorism from Palestinians. Everything i know suggests the Palestinians mentality was and is all or nothing.

And now this ultra successful surprise attack from Hamas, a group that poses as a government, but cares not a bit for its governed and has as its objective the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews. Palestinians and their government. The Japanese had an emperor/bushido mentality and a horror show was unleashed on them. In reality we talk intellectually about separating ideology and ideologues, religion and the religious but practically we see them as one and same. And Hamas is elected by Gazans.

So the illusion of some sort of security is busted open. And if you pacify a bully big or small bent on your destruction you are participating in your demise. But Gaza is a tiny area filled with tunnels and hostages are hidden. Hamas probably never imagined they could be so successful. But damn sure they knew what was coming. And the Palestinians know what Hamas is and how it sacrifices its people. I am not clear on whether they think they’re really going to paradise or feel bullied. Probably some of each.

So the victims of the indoctrination are victimized again because they backed the cult. The victims of the Israeli war effort could have in theory acted in their own interest when Israel withdrew. They could have built something but instead they were bent on their mission. The whole thing sucks and in a way it is artificial to say the babies and kids are the victims. We know that kind of indoctrination is hard to overcome and adults are as much victims as young ones. Israel is doing what it thinks it has to do for its citizens to end a horrifying regime and insure this time is last time for Hamas to attack Israel, and it is no worse than what Europeans and Arabs and Asians have done in similar circumstances. In fact Israelis have probably shown much more restraint than other nations would in those circumstances. That does not change the fact that real humans are being killed in a cycle of hopelessness.

BTW i recognize that Israel has its own problem with religion. The orthodox assholes are a problem in the Israeli government and their presence and large numbers in the West Bank and treatment of Palestinians there is atrocious. Israel should have withdrawn from West Bank the way it did Sinai and Gaza. Now Israel has occupied it so long that ceding it would provide a place to launch rockets and there are so many Jews there that it is not gonna happen. At this point neither side has any trust in the other. And Israel’s actions are killing not only the ones bent on their destruction but Palestinians who would not have supported the action taken by Hamas. Also i assume there will be more hellbent on destroy Israel and kill all the Jews folks that fill in the niche when Hamas is fini.

[—]

jakelafort wrote:

And yet the west gives it license to continue to oppress. How many women? Gays? Transgenders? Children? other impure? are fucked over by the cult?

Stop. Using. Us. As. A. Shield. For. YOUR. Bigotry. The west does not give a flying fuck about making life better for trans and gay Palestinians. That’s not why Israel gets backing. That’s not why the death tolls in Gaza are so high. Just fucking stop it, especially coming from a fucking American.

[jakelafort]

Autumn wrote:

Stop. Using. Us. As. A. Shield. For. YOUR. Bigotry. The west does not give a flying fuck about making life better for trans and gay Palestinians. That’s not why Israel gets backing. That’s not why the death tolls in Gaza are so high. Just fucking stop it, especially coming from a fucking American.

Who or what is Us? United States? us as in a group?

What bigotry? What are you talking about? My disdain for Islam and how the far left has enabled it? How it has added to the oppression of its victims. How it has added to the rampant antisemitism? How it has in fact become racist while pretending to fight racism? GUILTY. If that is what you are referring to. Typically bigotry is applied to people not institutions. I am not referring to how Islam impacts only Palestinians. I am speaking broadly about Islam and for my money how insane it is to have policies that protect it.

I never wrote or thought the west gives a flying fuck about making life better for trans and gay Palestinians! In fact if the other side were ANYTHING other than Jews this conflict would receive very little attention. If it cared you would hear the same kind of thing you hear about Israel in Egypt, Lebanon, and other Arab states and their oppressed Palestinians. The west does not care about any form of oppression to brown and black peoples. The African genocides. A few lines on the back page of a newspaper. No demonstrations all over the world. No University students crying bloody murder. No great call to intercede. No rise in hatred for the perpetrators who are related but have nothing to do with the conflict. It is all a big steaming pile of BS. And none of the aforementioned has any bearing on the tragic loss of life on either Israeli or Palestinian side.

I said nothing about why Israel gets backing.

Autumn we obviously have different conceptions on issues of human behavior. You fought my characterizations already of how i view people being INFECTED with mind viruses how that is at bottom the intractable issue in the middle east. I see things differently from how you see. I see people at all levels of socioeconomic, religious and non religious, educated and uneducated being easily led. Not questioning their religion. Not questioning their ideologies.

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