Humanism

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

From this article, it sounds like post-modern neo-Marxism is a real thing.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

Davis wrote:

Nobody was talking about social justice warriors.

Social justice warriors are said to say things like “everything is as true as everything else”, and really do say things like “free thinking is just white supremacist bullshit”. The people in the cartoon, referred to as “post modern neo-Marxists”, are social justice warriors.

Stop, stop, stop!!!

Simon, look at what you wrote and tell me why anyone who believes that “everything is as true as everything else” would be a warrior for anything whatsoever?

Who would be a warrior for the concept that nothing makes a difference? Why get off one’s arse?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

are said to say things like “everything is as true as everything else”

I’m not saying they really do say that, but it can be their reputation, as parodied in the cartoon.  Helen Pluckrose, who has contributed to TA, seems to think that it’s pretty close to the mark.

[UnseenParticipant]

Simon Paynton wrote:

I’m not saying they really do say that, but it can be their reputation, as parodied in the cartoon.  Helen Pluckrose, who has contributed to TA, seems to think that it’s pretty close to the mark.

So, what do YOU think? Do SJW’s act on a motivating principle that nothing makes a difference or not? I’m not interested in what Ms. Pluckrose thinks (an attempted argumentum ad verecundiam?) and if it’s just you and she, that’s a pretty weak example of an argumentum ad populum. (Sorry if I seem to be arguing ad hominem LOL In fact, I’m just having a little fun.)

Even so, what do you think?

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

So, what do YOU think? Do SJW’s act on a motivating principle that nothing makes a difference or not?

No, I don’t.  They really act like they give a shit about a lot of things.

[DavisModerator]

Social justice warriors one and only aim are: to bring the world more social justice. Which is not a particularly bad thing consider rights and treatment of women, black people and LGTBQ+ are barely barely tolerable. Yes its all portrayed well on television and cinema and most of the media, yes there are bubbles of high tollerance and black or gay elected leaders but in terms of daily reality a WHOLE lot more needs to be done. SJW are an ESSENTIAL part of helping realise better equality. Do some over-do it? Yes. Are some militantly aggressive? Yes. Are the rest necessary? Yes…because otherwise nothing would change. So your general disdain for them, is not only revolting because of they hyper generalizing and painting an entire group of people harshly by the actions of a minority of militants but it also tells me that you are intolerant to listening to inconvenient truths about how unfair the world and could care less about the change they bring.

But…aside from all of that…where the hell did you pull out this nonsense that people looking for social justice are all post-modern relativists? Did you just make that up or is it some assumption of yours? As though anybody who passionately cares about changing the world must also believe that everything is equally true? That’s preposterous. The very fact that you believe in equality is essential tells you that you do hold one essential truth…you know…that justice is necessary. No. That cartoon has nothing at all to do with SJWs except those few of them who, for their own reasons are relativists. And in any case, you should be a lot less dismissive of people who do all the hard work required to make my life, and the lives of other marginalized people…less miserable.

• This reply was modified 4 years, 3 months ago by  Davis.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

I agree with their stated aims, but the way they do it can be so very tiresome, not to mention hilarious once they start arguing.

where the hell did you pull out this nonsense that people looking for social justice are all post-modern relativists? Did you just make that up or is it some assumption of yours?

Jordan Peterson.

you should be a lot less dismissive of people who do all the hard work

The problem is, they’re doing all the hard work of making the Left unelectable.  Anyone who questions a word they say is branded a “fascist” or a “racist” and is liable to have their career ended.

The main problem as I see it with SJWs is that they put normal people off their quite legitimate messages, by acting crazy.

it also tells me that you are intolerant to listening to inconvenient truths about how unfair the world and could care less about the change they bring.

Really now?

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The problem is, they’re doing all the hard work of making the Left unelectable.  Anyone who questions a word they say is branded a “fascist” or a “racist” and is liable to have their career ended.

Who is branding the left wing as right wingers? The people who attack left-wing progressives are right-wing dingbats. Why does that make the right-wing electable?

Jordan Peterson…

I will walk past that one 🙂

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

The people who attack left-wing progressives are right-wing dingbats.

A lot of them are.  But I’m not a right-wing-nut.

Who is branding the left wing as right wingers? … Why does that make the right-wing electable?

???

[_Robert_Participant]

Yes, the right is very skilled at portraying liberals as useless snowflakes to sway the center to the right. Facebook, Twitter, and Yahoo are awash in such material and leftists often play right into it and offer lots to work with. Pretending that women are incapable of lying and that all white males are automatically toxic rapists is ill advised. The black community offers plenty of material as well. The right will say that Black crime rates are out of proportion. It’s been going on way too long for excuses. The numbers are out there. Even the very mention of this will bring on the leftist wrath. That will not work. This is why Trump may very well win again despite his incompetence. Liberals have got to get back to personal responsibility and rebuilding of the US infrastructure as part of their message.

[DavisModerator]

Anyone who questions a word they say is branded a “fascist” or a “racist” and is liable to have their career ended.

Again your hyperbole is out of control. I don’t know anyone who calls someone who disagrees with terms a fascist. A loud tiny minority does it…so are we all guilty by association? A few got hit unfairly by such claims but they are a fraction in comparison to those who deserved it for gross offense. Peterson receives no small amount of well deserved criticism. Instead of addressing the 99% he should address…he takes the bat-shit extreme 1%…exemplifies it as representative of all critique (which is one more of his dishonest lies) and presents them all as radical screaming angry leftists. That’s bullshit. And you are buying his rhetoric. Because you are totally unfamiliar with the actual critique. Otherwise you wouldnt be repeating this exaggerated nonsense. Pointing out that racism is still highly prevalent is not extreme. Criticising assholes like Peterson who claim racism isn’t a real problem is not extreme. Just as it would be entirely unfair for me to paint conservatives by the extremist far right assholes who can make them all seem like intolerant racist sexist mysogenist homophobes (Jordon Peterson for example) so should you have a little intellectual self-restraint and not paint an entire group of activists by the small ratio of loud obnoxious ones who cry out racism from a hair trigger. Are you not able to distinguish noise from substance? Or is it easier to just swallow Peterson’s simplistic painting of the world? I think you are capable of more nuanced positions Simon.

 

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I think it might be worth considering a further distinction between the Left and Right.

I have not thought through the following yet so it is just my initial idea on the topic.

Our understanding of the basic differences between Left and Right have been corrupted. Imagine a line drawn marked with points 1 to 100. The Left = 1 to 50 and the Right 51 to 100. Extremists on each side make up the spaces 1-10 and 90-100. This means the vast majority would be moderates, i.e. 20-80. Depending on the issues people would move into the 10-20 and 80-90 spaces for a while and then fall back into the moderate section. Others might move back and forward over the 50 mark into each others group.

All this was fine. The majority of people would have civilized discussions and not just hear, but listen, to each other’s opinions and views. The 10% of extremists had to shout louder to be heard and they were tolerated because the majority had the greater voice and the middle ground was a wide-open area where a free market place for ideas and debate could exist.

What has changed is the emergence of the “alt-left” and the “alt-right”. While they still might exist in the same range of numbers along my 1-100 line, the difference now is that they have the ability to shout louder and drown out the majority. This is what they do. They are very well financed and social media savvy. They also engage in very nasty and underhand tactics. Example.

For me these groups are not intellectually Left or Right in the traditional sense. They are constantly reacting to tweets and posts and demanding change that will suit them personally rather than benefit society in general. Many don’t even know what they want. But they know they want it now. It is up to us all to prevent the “alt” becoming the “neo”.

[UnseenParticipant]

While my sympathies as a generally liberal guy tend to align more with those of the anti-fascists (aka AntiFa around here), both sides are ready to mix it up in the streets.

John and Jane Doe, who have two kids, car payments, and a mortgage don’t necessarily identify with AntiFa’s values, especially considering that the Does may be religious and the “fascist” (remains to be proven) side are sometimes ostensibly conducting prayer marches.

Here’s the sort of thing that typically happens here in Portland, OR:

[_Robert_Participant]

@Reg, I think you are spot on with one addition. The efforts of the “alt-left” and the “alt-right” are paying off. Their ranks are growing. They seem to be flattening the curve, so to speak. In my town, the right is winning. Many of my previously sane friends have lost their minds into Trumpism. They are starting to resemble this……

 

[_Robert_Participant]

Holy crap, Unseen.

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