Sunday School

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

The key phrase in the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment is:

“…nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…”

Notice it says “any person,” not “any citizen.” That choice of language was intentional, and the U.S. Supreme Court has consistently interpreted it to mean that non-citizens, including undocumented immigrants and legal permanent residents, are entitled to basic due process rights when dealing with actions by state governments.

There’s also a Due Process Clause in the 5th Amendment, which applies to the federal government, and it also protects “persons,” not just citizens.

However, I will stand corrected on that point.

[UnseenParticipant]

@Enco

When someone enters America, they are subject to American law just like a citizen. If a tourist gets a speeding ticket, he has the due process right to show up in court and dispute it, just like a native citizen.

The only basis Trump has for denying anyone due process is his claim that he can use war powers, and all of the legal eagles I’ve seen or heard think that’s nonsense.

And, by the way, we’re none too proud of the last time such powers were used in WW2.

[_Robert_Participant]

Unseen wrote:

@Enco When someone enters America, they are subject to American law just like a citizen. If a tourist gets a speeding ticket, he has the due process right to show up in court and dispute it, just like a native citizen. The only basis Trump has for denying anyone due process is his claim that he can use war powers, and all of the legal eagles I’ve seen or heard think that’s nonsense. And, by the way, we’re none too proud of the last time such powers were used in WW2.

Got that right. And the “red scare” got pretty crazy too. I hate to say it, but if the economy crashes hard….that may actually save the country. Maybe the ass-kissing repugnant party will lose a bunch of seats in the midterms. And that partisan, perjuring, ethically challenged, favor-taking SCOTUS absolutely understands what a pile of steaming shit their legacy will be. Can they redeem themselves?

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

When someone enters America, they are subject to American law just like a citizen. If a tourist gets a speeding ticket, he has the due process right to show up in court and dispute it, just like a native citizen.

If the person is here illegally, the outcome of the ruling might not be to the person’s liking.

The only basis Trump has for denying anyone due process is his claim that he can use war powers, and all of the legal eagles I’ve seen or heard think that’s nonsense.

And, by the way, we’re none too proud of the last time such powers were used in WW2.

The Neisei put into detention camps by FDR were natural-born U.S. Citizens, not immigrants. And none of the Neisei were even accused of treasonous or seditious acts, much less indicted or convicted. So nothing to be proud of and no comparison between the Neisei Citizens and immigrants, either legal or illegal.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Reg,

If someone is here illegally or does something to break conditions of their visa, due process and rights clearly doesn’t mean a right to stay.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

If the person is here illegally, the outcome of the ruling might not be to the person’s liking.

Duh. Trump is deporting people without actual judicial rulings.

The Neisei put into detention camps by FDR were natural-born U.S. Citizens, not immigrants.

As are some of the deportees.

And none of the Neisei were even accused of treasonous or seditious acts, much less indicted or convicted. So nothing to be proud of and no comparison between the Neisei Citizens and immigrants, either legal or illegal.

I hate to point out something so obvious, but there is a basis for comparison. No due process. While some may actually be fugitives or prison escapees, in America, we don’t deport people based on looking Mexican, being Spanish speakers unable to speak English, having any kind of tattoos, wearing a baseball cap backward, anonymous allegations even from “confidential informants,” being suspected of holding opinions it’s legal for citizens to hold, or even for joining in political protests just like Americans.

That’s how America works according to the Constitution.

I trust things will be okay as long as the Constitution is respected and followed.

I don’t trust Mr. Trump to do that.

Just as our forefathers didn’t anticipate the firepower available over the counter today, they didn’t anticipate the sort of psychopathic scoundrel occupying The White House today.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Unseen.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Fellow Unbelievers,

Something has been frosting me all day:

When I came into work earlier and rang up my first customer, after I finished, he jokingly said: “I don’t have to pay”, evidently a lame attempt to get a smile from me. The man next to him in line said: “Welp, if it’s Good Friday, it oughtta be free!”

I guees some people think Jesus pays for grocery bills.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

I hate to point out something so obvious, but there is a basis for comparison. No due process. While some may actually be fugitives or prison escapees, in America, we don’t deport people based on looking Mexican, being Spanish speakers unable to speak English, having any kind of tattoos, wearing a baseball cap backward, anonymous allegations even from “confidential informants,” being suspected of holding opinions it’s legal for citizens to hold, or even for joining in political protests just like Americans.

To point something equally obvious, no one here has advocated any of that and you’re setting up a Straw-Man made of tumbleweeds. All I’ve correctly pointed out is that due process means something different for non-Citizens, which this article also elaborates on in great detail:

What constitutional rights do undocumented immigrants have?
By — Gretchen Frazee
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-constitutional-rights-do-undocumented-immigrants-have

I might also add to this that non-Citizens don’t have a right to hold public office, even Citizens are generally required to live in the jurisdiction where they hold public office, and only a Natural-Born U.S. Citizen can be President of the U.S.

As for Muhammad Khalil, while facts are up in the air about him, if there is any evidence that he has gone beyond mere expressions of opinion to supporting terrorism, through the door or out the window.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

I might also add to this that non-Citizens don’t have a right to hold public office, even Citizens are generally required to live in the jurisdiction where they hold public office, and only a Natural-Born U.S. Citizen can be President of the U.S.

Which non-citizen is running for public office? (strawman?).

As for Muhammad Khalil, while facts are up in the air about him, if there is any evidence that he has gone beyond mere expressions of opinion to supporting terrorism, through the door or out the window.

No. Not evidence. Proof. In other words, sufficient evidence to prove he is supporting terrorism, using the same standard that would apply to an American as well.

[UnseenParticipant]

Trump only conforms with law when he has no choice. Now, he’s the President.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Enco,

It aint that bad. Living among theists who posit every form of mythology from the ahistorical scapegoating of Israel mythology to the good place/bad place for immortals decided by a guy with a white beard who is watching us every second along with the endless homilies and worthless religious prattle ya just roll with the punches. Everything happens for a reason. Have a blessed day.

Nobody is home.

[_Robert_Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

Enco, It aint that bad. Living among theists who posit every form of mythology from the ahistorical scapegoating of Israel mythology to the good place/bad place for immortals decided by a guy with a white beard who is watching us every second along with the endless homilies and worthless religious prattle ya just roll with the punches. Everything happens for a reason. Have a blessed day. Nobody is home.

In the universe as we know it, everything does happen for a reason. Doesn’t mean there was any reasoning behind it.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Which non-citizen is running for public office? (strawman?).

I point this out to further emphasize that non-Citizens don’t have the same legal privileges as Citizens.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

Enco,

It aint that bad. Living among theists who posit every form of mythology from the ahistorical scapegoating of Israel mythology to the good place/bad place for immortals decided by a guy with a white beard who is watching us every second along with the endless homilies and worthless religious prattle ya just roll with the punches. Everything happens for a reason. Have a blessed day.

Nobody is home.

I hear “Have a blessed day” every day, but I’ve never heard that level of entitlement from Holy-Rollers. This guy literally thinkz it’s all Heaven sent.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

Deporting Citizens to a place where they couldn’t exercise right to counsel or due process would be Unconstitutional. But not non-Citizens.

And if the 1952 law giving the Secretary of State power to deport for foreign policy reasons is Uncontitutional, wasn’t it so under every subsequent President including Obama or Sleepy Joe? Where were the complaints against that law then?

Seems like a lot of people complaining about arbitrary use of power have either been asleep a long time or just not happy with who has it now.

As for Universities complaining about losing funds because of their Identitarian discriminatory policies and hostile campus atmospheres, here’s some perspective:

President Eisenhower sent the 101st Airborne to Little Rock, Arkansas to see to it that children could go go school regardless of their “race” without getting mobbed by Zombies who were eat up with hatred. Nowadays, the University faculty and Deans are among the Zombies and are just jonesing for the latest Walking Dead episode.

• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling
• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Proper suffix
• This reply was modified 1 month ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Agreement of modifiers

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