Sunday School

Sunday School August 4th 2019

This topic contains 45 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  Ivy 1 week, 5 days ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 46 total)
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  • #27572

    Davis
    Participant

    It’s not just insensitive and stupid (and yes I agree the insensitivity is besides the point but it does show that he was doing this for an ironic disingenuous kicks and not a concerted effort to evaluate a constitutional law). It was extremely dangerous (people get hurt and even die during panics and stampedes and police shoot innocent people frequently in the USA), wasting first responders time (when they could potentially be rescuing others putting their lives in danger too), has traumatised numerous people, shut down a business for hours and so on. If there is nothing illegal per what he did in Missouri then fine. It’s pretty horrifying that Missouri doesn’t have a public disturbance law of the kind because, as I’ve said, the gun law is besides the point and I know for a fact that any constitutional amendment doesn’t give you the right to break any law you like. He gets off free. No surprise: america has no end of absurd laws and an extremely absurd lack of some laws. I personally wouldn’t want to live in a country where a person can knowingly set off a dangerous panic for his own pleasure and not be penalized for it, nor do I want to live in a country where many people celebrate him for risking other people’s lives in the name of a constitutional test that didn’t even need to be tested that way.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Davis.
    #27574

    Ivy
    Participant

    RE: But what he did was extremely reckless and potentially lethal.

    But unfortunately, I think it’s things like this that are going to be what it takes to actually change the gun laws. Sad but true. That’s the country we live in….

    RE: Stampedes happen all the time. He also very easily could have been shot by the police (if he were black I doubt he would have lasted a couple minutes before being shot).

    Oh 100% absolutely correct! And I think he damn well knows that. Everybody knows that. That’s part of why he could get away with it to begin with, and I think on some level he knew that. I think the risk to his own life is something that on some level he was willing to risk. People had warned him not to do it, and he went ahead with it anyway. It would’ve been a classic case of curiosity kills the cat 😂
    RE: In all countries I’ve ever lived in, this guy would be in prison without bail and he’d be charged with causing a panic or a similar law.

    Yes Davis, but you’ve lived in the sane countries. Haven’t you figured out by now that the United States is fucking stupid?
    RE: That’s what a self-centered attention seeking arrogant douchey stpuid punk does.

    That’s the whole point right there Davis. Every single white fucking stupid ass 20 something male with a firearm living in his parents basement who has committed these atrocities in the past couple of decades Was the exact same way. The only difference here is that he carried the gun… But he didn’t intend to shoot anybody. He just wanted to see what would happen if he exercised his, “Constitutional right to bear arms.” I actually applaud him Because he proved a really good fucking point that maybe now people will start listening and really start talking about it in some type of real way. Maybe some of the people from the NRA will get their heads out of their ass and actually change their position on the matter. But unfortunately… Even now I don’t see that happening. I think that our country is really that fucking stupid. After all, we voted in Donald Trump. We are stupid collectively. And it doesn’t look like there’s really an end to our stupidity. It is going to be the downfall of our nation. It already has been.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Ivy.
    #27577

    Ivy
    Participant

    @robert

    Well said and so very true. But why is it like that?

    Because we’re stupid. And I don’t trust anybody anymore. Haven’t you noticed? Our country is in a 21st-century Civil War

    #27578

    Ivy
    Participant

    But then we would have a scenario where the shooter, who had the right to bear arms, shot another man who also had the right to bear arms and they could both defend their reasons for bearing those arms in public in the first place because they felt equally threatened from the recent events in El Paso.

    EXACTLY!!!!

    And all this talk of him being so “insensitive.”…You know what’s is insensitive? All of these moronic members of Congress and the Senate sending out thoughts and prayers to the victims, meanwhile sitting on their ass doing nothing catering to the NRA, Refusing to change the laws. Here comes a young man saying… OK… Let’s see how far this law will take me….I don’t know give a shit if we think he’s insensitive. I think he was fucking brave and brilliant at the same time. I hope his actions gets the right kind of media coverage that it deserves to open up a real conversation and I hope that it results in some real change.

    #27579

    Davis
    Participant

    Well said and so very true. But why is it like that?

    It comes down to a different mentality per law and justice. America is extremely unique in many ways. There is an almost fetish for people in uniform (“thank you for your service”, public police funerals, virtual impunity for police abuse, respect of authority, admiration for personal sacrafice) which you hardly see in other developed countries. It leads to a form of training which is heavy on the use of guns as the first and principle tool of a police/soldier/guard in difficult situations. The justice system is also extremely harsh and this is well supported by the population who regularly vote for propositions of mandatory sentences and harsher penalties. It leads to an absurd, no insane level of incarceration. Along with it comes a near dehumanization of prisoners which includes the right of the state to murder a citizen (well supported in most states), where jail conditions can be inhumane, violence rape and guard abuse is a chronic problem and it is met mostly by indifference. As though justice is about drawing blood rather than safety, deterrence and rehabilitation…which is all FAR more likely to reduce crime and recurrant criminality. All of these factors can lead to more crime.

    There is also in many states and extremely low funding of social programs, most especially for the homeless and those on the verge of homelessness. The mentality is one of “why should I have to pay for the fuck-ups of a __(fill in the blank)___” [lazy, irresponsible, welfare-queen, fuck-up, criminal]. It leads to a higher level of social problems and homelessness as well as poverty which is a paradise for generating more crime.

    And then there is that damned constitutional amendement interpreted so far beyond its original intent one wonders why the surpreme court bothers interpreting anything at all.

    Add that all together and yes, you have high crime levels and the illusion you need a gun. If you live in a particularly dangerous area, get a projectile tazer gun. Learn to use it. Regularly practice and keep up with your weapons use competence. Keep it out of any possible reach of children. Stay up to date on new less violent weapons. Avoid recurrant memes of “being the hero machismo” and study the methods that are actually effective at protecting yourself and your family. Etc.

    #27580

    Ivy
    Participant

    @davis

    I admire your intellect. But the way that you strung all of those ideas together trying to connect them… was utterly false. I’m not sure even where to begin to unravel that mess.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Ivy.
    #27582

    Davis
    Participant

    I’m not sure even where to begin to unravel that mess.

    In my masters degree I studied American human rights and the justice system writing my masters thesis on the American prison system, the relationship between poverty in the US and levels of crime, (especially compared with other countries) and the death penalty.

    Why don’t you begin with just one of my statements and tell me what is wrong with it.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 6 days ago by  Davis.
    #27584

    Ivy
    Participant

    @davis

    In my masters degree I studied American human rights and the justice system writing my masters thesis on the American prison system, the relationship between poverty in the US and levels of crime, (especially compared with other countries) and the death penalty.

    Yeah? Well I obtain my masters in forensic psychology, and when I find wrong with your statements is the WAY you have strung all of these things together…,Conclusion being in your words why there is “High crime levels and the illusion that you need a gun.”

    A+B does not equal C. Some of the ideas that you mention are valid to discuss, but you have a oversimplified them in a way that makes the sum of your argument false…

    #27585

    Unseen
    Participant

     

    On e thing Trump is masterful at is creating a distraction. He is now (for now) saying he is in favor of strong background checks to keep crszy people from getting guns.

    Hate is not mental illness. If you read the El Paso shooter’s “Manifesto,” he clearly is not crazy. He’s no more crazy than an antivaccination freak or a person who believes the government is withholding info about UFO’s. He’s the prisoner of bad, poisonous ideation.

    The Dayton shooter would be a better candidate because his ideas were all over the place. How can anyone support Bernie Sanders yet kill people, including his own sister, indiscriminately?

    Even so, I doubt if a legally strong enough psychiatric case could have been made to a court to lock him up. The legal bar for proving insanity is very high, or we’d be locking hundreds of thousands of “weirdos” up for just being distressingly different from “normal.”

    Yes, occasionally a schizophrenic kills people, but angry people are more likely to kill, and a lot of Americans are angry because they are convinced that immigrants are taking jobs and fundamentally changing America.

    They want to go back to a familiar America when the world was mostly white people and they didn’t have to deal with people who spoke no English or spoke with a thick accent.

    Me? I assume that the US will be bilingual in a few decades and may even be a Spanish speaking country in a hundred years. I don’t lose sleep over that idea.

    #27586

    Ivy
    Participant

    @unseen

    If you read the El Paso shooter’s “Manifesto,” he clearly is not crazy. He’s no more crazy than an antivaccination freak or a person who believes the government is withholding info about UFO’s. He’s the prisoner of bad, poisonous ideation.

    What is your definition of crazy? Anybody who commits mass murder cannot be classified as completely sane. No matter how charming, seemingly logical, or charismatic their arguments to justify what they have done or will do, when you get down to the root of what has caused them to do what they have done, you will most definitely find pathological thinking, And a break from reality. The man may not be crazy in the sense that he is having hallucinations. But his worldview and view of reality is seriously warped.

    #27587

    Ivy
    Participant

    One thing Trump is masterful at is creating a distraction.

    Only because we fall for it. If people had the balls to call it what it really is, he would have to switch tactics. But his supporters eat out of his hands and believe every goddamn word he says. It is mind-boggling to me how anybody can be that stupid. Ever since he “won” (Green shirt guy laugh) the election.,.I continue to wonder how our nation became so stupid.

    #27590

    Unseen
    Participant

    What is your definition of crazy? Anybody who commits mass murder cannot be classified as completely sane. No matter how charming, seemingly logical, or charismatic their arguments to justify what they have done or will do, when you get down to the root of what has caused them to do what they have done, you will most definitely find pathological thinking, And a break from reality. The man may not be crazy in the sense that he is having hallucinations. But his worldview and view of reality is seriously warped.

    My definition of “crazy” is roughly the legal one and thus one that can be actually applied. You are applying a colloquial sense of “crazy.” Even speaking pathologically, I doubt if his ideation reaches a defensible medical level of mental illness.

    Here in America, we don’t lock people up for having “out there” ideas. We don’t even lock them up for having a weapon of mass destruction like he did.

    Ideas evolve over time. Imagine how a future world of vegetarian socialists would view our crazy ideas about meat eating and being tolerant of a society dominated by for-profit corporations.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  Unseen.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by  Unseen.
    #27593

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Here in America, we don’t lock people up for having “out there” ideas.

    You can’t be mentally healthy if you shoot up a Walmart. We want see these killers fry or rot in solitary for what they did. Thus the legal definition if insane does not cover these killers even though they are not well.

    #27598

    Davis
    Participant

    Ivy…the point of my post was to hi-light the level of crime in the USA. It is enormously high and the rest of the developed world sees nothing like it. One of the most often quoted excuses people have for “needing” guns is the tired meme of “protecting their family”. That doesn’t necesarily mean it’s true, but that’s part of the narrative. I don’t have 300 pages to discuss any topic in depth nor can I mention more than a few of the factors. But in answering the question “how did it get this way” (in comparison with other countries) a major part of it is the high levels of crime (as well as a long standing gun culture amongst other reasons) and of the most often ignored sources of that violence in the USA, ones that most citizens barely realise, is in most states, totally inadequate funding for social programs, the harshness of the justice system and recidivism and a couple more I haven’t even mentioned because everyone already knows about it quite well: systemic racism and race related social problems.

    This all varies drastically from state to state and if anything it really demonstrates well the connection between these factors and gun violence/owning guns etc. States such as in New England have amongst the best funded social programs, more reasonable justice system, less flagrant racism (though it obviously exists), fewer ghettos, a lower rate of crime (with a couple notable exceptions) and apart from hunting rifles, a relatively low ownership of guns. Of course gun regulation makes an enormous difference and several New England states have some pretty reasonable gun regulation laws.

    On the inverse, take a state like Mississippi or Alabama and we find the opposite in most cases. I believe there are a few users here on atheist zone who claim they live in southern rural areas with high levels of crime and that their houses get broken into by meth-heads and they honestly believe their only hope in these situations is having a gun. I’m only pointing out factors that users here, especially from the USA have not considered or are unaware of. And yes unfortunately it has to be done in an oversimplified way because of space restrictions (my posts are already too long) and because I cannot mention 50 different factors.

    Since you have an expertise in the topic why don’t you share it?

    #27602

    Ivy
    Participant

    @davis

    I believe there are a few users here on atheist zone who claim they live in southern rural areas with high levels of crime and that their houses get broken into by meth-heads and they honestly believe their only hope in these situations is having a gun.

    Davis the way that you talk, I don’t think you’ve ever lived in a place like that. Let me tell you something, I grew up in New Mexico. It has gotten way worse over time but every single day there our house break-ins, sometimes they have a gun sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they will shoot you, sometimes they won’t. You don’t really know what to expect or when. And yes, these break-ins have a lot to do with getting valuables to sell for drugs. I will tell you the honest truth, if I move back to New Mexico I would absolutely invest in the training to safely handle a fire arm. It would be stupid of me not to. People were shot and killed every day, and it’s to a point that it’s just part of normal life there. New Mexico is definitely not the only place like that, but it is definitely one of the worst, and every statistic about our city, and our state reflects all the reasons why.

    I’m surprised you didn’t bring up gangs or the cartels at all so I’m going to add my 2 cents…It is mind boggling to even try to explain the extent of Cartels that operate all over the world. When you really look at gun violence, many times it is cartel members shooting each other. There are certain parts of Mexico that have to deal with this type of gun violence on almost a nightly basis if not several times a night…Drug dealers on the street level typically carry firearms to keep from getting robbed. The drug trade is a very huge and very lucrative business, if not the most lucrative business in the world…Even if we imposed the strictest of gun laws in this country, We would have to confront the reality that these types of criminals would still find a way around them. It is a never ending constant game of cat and mouse that law-enforcement plays with the drug cartels. The media reports on these matters when there is a big drug bust. But every single day millions of dollars of cocaine, heroin, fentanyl (And now, the very very dangerous trend of mixing fentanyl with heroin), Is moved across international borders into the primary market of the United States. And people like my sisters are buying with no end in sight. I agree that the gun laws need to change. But to even begin to believe that it is even half of the solution that we really need… I am not optimistic.

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