Sunday School

Sunday School May 22nd 2022.

This topic contains 63 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  Unseen 6 months, 1 week ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 64 total)
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  • #42995

    Autumn
    Participant

    Feminist vs trans wars really don’t help liberalism… at all.

    It’s not meant to. While so-called “gender critical” feminists are not necessarily right wing, it’s right wing movements propping up and promoting the conflict. That’s why you see right-wing publications and pundits glomming onto it all.

    Anti-trans strategies tend to follow a few basic tactics:

    i) Foster a belief that people’s way of life us under attack.

    ii) Concern trolling (e.g. I’m not anti-trans; I’m just defending women/ children/ religious minorities/ people with autism/ etc.)

    iii) Misconstrue trans rights arguments to paint them as absurd, even if you have to lie through your fucking teeth.

    iv) Nurture a belief that there is a silent majority being victimized by a vocal minority.

    The first and last are particularly important are effective when ordinary, middle-ground people don’t say anything. It creates this image that most people are also against ‘trans insanity’, but are just too scared to speak up.

    “Defund the Police” is an idiotic rally cry.

    The movement isn’t, and if a movement is derailed by a slogan, that’s generally going to be a movement people were looking to dismiss in the first place.

    Lots of this stuff not gonna be an issue when the rising seas overtake Manhattan and paved roads are melting.

    Anti-racism and anti-transphobia in no way interfere with fighting climate change. Generally you will find high overlap between people who promote equality and are actively concerned about the environment. This sad sack, coddle the naughty children approach to politics has led to a Democrat party that is simply less awful on climate change than the Republicans, but that just isn’t enough.

    The tactics being used against you aren’t that fucking complicated. Make people uncomfortable with perceived change, comfortable with the status quo, and convince them that anyone promoting change is really just attacking the silent majority. For spice, give them rhetoric they can use to act like they’re playing the part of the good guy. If possible, pull them into circle jerks that just recycle these same thought patterns so they are reinforced over and over and over. It’s not a system that collapses on itself. It’s a system that undulates with rises and dips in support as the middle is perpetually swayed, and that’s not going to end by constantly going for the soft sell.

    #42996

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    I haven’t yet read Why Atheism? but it sounds great. When I get more time, I would also like to practice the “Street Epistemology” you are evidently doing.

    Even with “Nones” being 30 percent of the U.S., we’re still a minority, and even those “Nones” can harbor Supernatural notions. So as long as we end up engaging with the religious, we might as well engage on terms that could be most advantageous.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Emphasis on the title
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Adding an 'o'.to 'epistemology.'
    #42999

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Fellow Unbelievers,

    One thing you could point out in any discussions that come up with others is that, even in the modern day, something like 50+ percent of fertilized eggs end up flushed down the toilet completely naturally, often without a woman’s knowledge.

    Miscarriage–Wikipedia
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miscarriage

    New Research Shows Most Human Pregnancies End in Miscarriage
    https://www.sciencealert.com/meta-analysis-finds-majority-of-human-pregnancies-end-in-miscarriage-biorxiv

    If Louisiana is going to hold that human life begins at conception and that abortion is murder, will they have people sloshing through sewers and septic tanks looking for menses or tampons that might have a flushed embryo in them? Will someone with a grudge against another plant one of these embryos on someone’s property to try and set them up on false charges of abortion/murder?

    Goodness knows enough women made false baby-daddy allegations to give Maury Povich a 30 + year guaranteed income, so why couldn’t this happen when the stakes are not just child support, but life imprisonment or death?

    Will women have to do what they did in Communist Romania under Ceauşescu and submit to monthly OB/GYN exams to prove they haven’t had any “accidents” climbing stairs or walking on slick floors or face criminal prosecution?

    And most telling of all, wouldn’t this biological fact also make the God they worship The Ultimate Abortionist?

    #43000

    Unseen
    Participant

    @autumn

    I do have a stake in affairs concerning the elderly, who seem to get the short end of the stick when it comes to health care, Rx prices, eligibility for employment opportunities, etc., etc., etc.

    Should I just throw a pissy fit and insist that my party take a stance that may cost them on election day…even if it means ending up with the party that will actively be taking away what I do have now?

    Where’s the logic in that?

    Some things take time. Getting what one wants eventually rather than RIGHT NOW is simply being realistic and accepting the best outcome that’s possible rather than one that isn’t ready to be realized yet.

    People on the Dem side pressing for more than the public wanted or were ready for is what gave us Trump and a Supreme Court poised to turn the country into a puritanical evangelical Christian theocracy where trans folks and LGBTQ’s generally will be far far worse off than they are now.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #43002

    Autumn
    Participant

    If 2SLGBTQ+ people listened to you, we’d have waited for the heat death of the universe before getting any rights, all the while you’d be no better off vis a vis Trump and the polarization of the United States. It’s a manufactured outrage, and there would always be another target to paint to get the people riled up. Always.

    You are the problem, not the solution.

    #43003

    Unseen
    Participant

    The startling naïvité expressed by one member than echoed by another that the assault on trans rights and women’s rights—a fairly persistent right wing propaganda campaign—will just somehow sort of tidy up by waiting for the Republicans to implode, potentially. Then the Democrats can supposedly take the up the reins again and somehow end up further ahead by starting from further back than they are now.

    I think you’re mischaracterizing me. I’m not implying that somehow everything will be peachy if the Democrats win the White House again, keeping Trump or worse out. No. I’m saying that keeping Trump or worse out will prevent, not just backsliding, but disaster for trans folks and the LGTPQ community. We’re drifting toward a puritanical, rigid, white evangelical Christian theocracy. You don’t like your current situation? Wait until you lose it!

    Getting what you want will take time. The Dems can’t change that because they can’t act like overlords and shove stuff down the electorate’s throat that it doesn’t want.

    Being realistic about what’s possible and what will win the next election to prevent total backsliding…You should volunteer to dive under the bus.

    #43004

    Unseen
    Participant

    If 2SLGBTQ+ people listened to you, we’d have waited for the heat death of the universe before getting any rights, all the while you’d be no better off vis a vis Trump and the polarization of the United States. It’s a manufactured outrage, and there would always be another target to paint to get the people riled up. Always. You are the problem, not the solution.

    You obviously went to Davis’s school of ad hominem doom and gloom rants. Blacks and browns, gays, and women have made a lot of progress, but it came the only way it really can: with public acceptance and empathy. And we aren’t there just yet with trans people, and the reason is that a lot of the issues are uncomfortable…on both sides.

    #43005

    Autumn
    Participant

    Being realistic about what’s possible and what will win the next election to prevent total backsliding…You should volunteer to dive under the bus.

    It isn’t realistic. It’s just part of a cycle of abuse that’s been going on longer than I’ve been alive.

    #43006

    Unseen
    Participant

    Being realistic about what’s possible and what will win the next election to prevent total backsliding…You should volunteer to dive under the bus.

    It isn’t realistic. It’s just part of a cycle of abuse that’s been going on longer than I’ve been alive.

    I’m not hearing much of a plan, so you’re just fatalistic, then?

    #43007

    Davis
    Moderator

    You obviously went to Davis’s school of ad hominem doom and gloom rants. Blacks and browns, gays, and women have made a lot of progress, but it came the only way it really can: with public acceptance and empathy. And we aren’t there just yet with trans people, and the reason is that a lot of the issues are uncomfortable…on both sides.

    Denial of the scope of the problems of marginalised people and excusing the extremely slow pace of change because…well just because (and a little dose of blaming the marginalised)

    #43008

    Davis
    Moderator

    Should I just throw a pissy fit and insist that my party take a stance that may cost them on election day…even if it means ending up with the party that will actively be taking away what I do have now?

    Some things take time

    Excuses. Those excuses never get old

    #43009

    Autumn
    Participant

    Being realistic about what’s possible and what will win the next election to prevent total backsliding…You should volunteer to dive under the bus.

    It isn’t realistic. It’s just part of a cycle of abuse that’s been going on longer than I’ve been alive.

    I’m not hearing much of a plan, so you’re just fatalistic, then?

    i) I don’t need to provide a plan to criticize bullshit. That’s irrational.

    ii) I the average person just stopped this endless tolerance of American, wussy, weasel-word, crybaby tactics you’d go a long way to reducing the social and political currency of bullshit. You are a nation half run by Karens (male and female Karens alike).

    It doesn’t even require taking sides or getting into long arguments. When someone is shooting their mouth off, normalize saying ‘Enough with the bullshit.’ It’s not always about changing minds. Sometimes it literally is just about reducing the comfort of spreading propaganda through everyday channels.

    While a department of disinformation is not likely a viable solution, you all really do have a chronic bullshit problem. You’re addicted to the stuff. If you can’t back off this cultural addiction to bullshit, you are going to be endlessly stuck in this loop of voting for the lesser of two evils on a prayer that this time around it doesn’t tip to a Trump-alike.

    #43010

    Davis
    Moderator

    You obviously went to Davis’s school of ad hominem doom and gloom rants

    Pointing out how we are treated unfairly and unjustly and fighting for change, is an inconvenient annoying rant for Unseen. I’m not sorry for that. Your “discomfort” with people pointing out the injustice they face is a choice. You can do what all too many people do and deny, deflect, be indifferent, resist or you could help (even just listening instead of helping the status quo is of great help). It deeply saddens me how you sometimes dig in and fight against what should be an uncontroversial struggle for fairness, justice and obviousness…plain to be seen.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Davis.
    #43012

    Unseen
    Participant

    Being realistic about what’s possible and what will win the next election to prevent total backsliding…You should volunteer to dive under the bus.

    It isn’t realistic. It’s just part of a cycle of abuse that’s been going on longer than I’ve been alive.

    I’m not hearing much of a plan, so you’re just fatalistic, then?

    i) I don’t need to provide a plan to criticize bullshit. That’s irrational. ii) I the average person just stopped this endless tolerance of American, wussy, weasel-word, crybaby tactics you’d go a long way to reducing the social and political currency of bullshit. You are a nation half run by Karens (male and female Karens alike). It doesn’t even require taking sides or getting into long arguments. When someone is shooting their mouth off, normalize saying ‘Enough with the bullshit.’ It’s not always about changing minds. Sometimes it literally is just about reducing the comfort of spreading propaganda through everyday channels. While a department of disinformation is not likely a viable solution, you all really do have a chronic bullshit problem. You’re addicted to the stuff. If you can’t back off this cultural addiction to bullshit, you are going to be endlessly stuck in this loop of voting for the lesser of two evils on a prayer that this time around it doesn’t tip to a Trump-alike.

    i) I wasn’t asking for a plan to criticize anything, but a plan to avoid disaster in 2024 as well as a plan for progress going forward.

    ii) If your plan is for the public to just stop being backward or hateful, you seem to be either trading is wishes, hopes, and dreams, which is no plan. Open minded and empathetic Americans will follow their inner lights, but those inner lights may not correspond 100% with what you’d like.

    It’s all going to take time and American trans people will have no choice but to wait for the public to evolve. (I understand you’re not American, so I’m talking generally about American trans people through you.) A plan would be to help Americans to involve rather than simply waiting or trying to force them. Concessions will be made to make peace, such as something to fix the trans athlete problem in women’s sports. The evidence is coming in that trans women are not just women, only trans. We may end up with men’s, women’s, and some sort of “other” category in some sports.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Unseen.
    #43014

    Unseen
    Participant

    You obviously went to Davis’s school of ad hominem doom and gloom rants

    Pointing out how we are treated unfairly and unjustly and fighting for change, is an inconvenient annoying rant for Unseen. I’m not sorry for that. Your “discomfort” with people pointing out the injustice they face is a choice. You can do what all too many people do and deny, deflect, be indifferent, resist or you could help (even just listening instead of helping the status quo is of great help). It deeply saddens me how you sometimes dig in and fight against what should be an uncontroversial struggle for fairness, justice and obviousness…plain to be seen.

    Come on, Davis. We all get treated unfairly. Being treated unfairly doesn’t make you, me, trans people, gays and lesbians, black and brown people, women, the homeless, or the elderly special.

    Another problem, of course, is that everyone wants justice and fairness as they define it. What’s just and fair didn’t come down Mount Sinai engraved on a stone tablet. It’s up for debate.

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