Is the US officially a fascist country yet?

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Jake,

Review the thread.  I called no one a name, just listed the fallacies that abounded.

Did your law school include reading comprehension?  You may want to ask for your tuition back.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Encogitationer, how about you stop skirting the issue and admit that you are mistaken? Or do you have an argument? If so make it.

Otherwise be an adult and admit that the USA ought to emulate nations that handle health care in a more advanced way.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Davis,

Let me get this straight: You want to surveil, stalk, harass, and bully-rag the hired help of an alcohol-selling establishment, the private property of a private business, to stop what you deem to be discrimininatory “desparate impact” in alcohol sales and refusals…

You want to achieve some institutional grand design of alcohol sales and refusals representative of a proportion of some arbitrarily defined and chosen demographic in an arbitrary “society”…

Because you think you know the subconscious of the individual hired helpers better than the individual hired helpers themselves???

You have really tipped your hand here.  As The Bard would put it, someone doth protest against “sociopathic society” ‘way too much, methinks.

Please, please promise me you will try this social engineering scheme in some alcohol-selling establishment somewhere!  I will love to hear and see what comes next!

At best, you’ll get thrown out as a trespasser and have a restraining order put on you, to the sound of cheers from management, the hired help, and every decent customer from every walk of life who knows that the ID policy is to keep youth safe and drivers safe and who knows there isn’t a Klansman under every bush.

And if some corporate coward C.E.O. knuckles under to “Wokeness” and implements what you want, the pressure to both comply with alcohol policy and the absurdity of keeping demographic goals and timetables on sober and drunk patrons will mean permanent closing time on alcohol sales!  De facto Prohibition even if it isn’t de jure!  That’s when the real fun starts!

This is why we can’t have nice things.

[DavisModerator]

Encoginator, I don’t personally know this, psychologists and sociologist know this through comprehensive studies. For example when HR specialists are given resumés with non-ethnic sounding gender neutral names, the most qualified person is selected. If it is clearly a woman’s name or an ethnic sounding name, they are less likely to be selected. This is usually done subconsciously (over racism is usually not a factor here though it can be). This happens. You cannot pretend as though that isn’t subconscious (or in some sad cases overt) bigotry. And that is ONE example.

You can pretend that racism doesn’t exist and act as though nothing should be done about it but those who suffer from racism and bigotry will do something about it and fight for change. They are labelled as “angry black people” or “subversive gay pride people who just want attention” but their goal isn’t to be angry or attention grabbing but to be able to live without bigotry and discrimination. In the mean time society pays a huge cost allowing that bigotry and discrimination to continue (especially when it comes to the fewer opportunities the marginalised face, and especially the creation of poor and even dangerous neighbourhoods because of it which is bad for everyone).

Most of the world are introducing diversity programs in their workplaces (sometimes mandated by law). Some of them are pretty weak, just designed to help people recognise their own biases and avoid making poor biased decisions that can be harmful in the workplace. There are few if any actual changes, just helping people be aware of how discriminatory decisions work in action. You call that social engineering. Of course you would. You have a tribalistic mentality that fiercely avoids any change to the status quo (which is easy because bigotry never affects you) that actually brings about real equality…so fiercely you’ll even deny bigotry when it demonstrably happens. I call it making live tolerable for the marginalised who have every right to enjoy life on as equal a footing as everyone else. By your reasoning then the “desegregation of schools” was social engineering. Allowing women the vote was social engineering. Rules that dealt with sexual harassment in the office was “social engineering”. So yeah…it’s only natural you’d find the scientific investigation of subconscious bigotry and simply pointing it out, as extremely threatening to you and pass it off as social engineering. Grow up.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 8 months ago by  Davis.

[_Robert_Participant]

Davis wrote:

Encoginator, I don’t personally know this, psychologists and sociologist know this through comprehensive studies. For example when HR specialists are given resumés with non-ethnic sounding gender neutral names, the most qualified person is selected. If it is clearly a woman’s name or an ethnic sounding name, they are less likely to be selected. This is usually done subconsciously (over racism is usually not a factor here though it can be). This happens. You cannot pretend as though that isn’t subconscious (or in some sad cases overt) bigotry. And that is ONE example. You can pretend that racism doesn’t exist and act as though nothing should be done about it but those who suffer from racism and bigotry will do something about it and fight for change. They are labelled as “angry black people” or “subversive gay pride people who just want attention” but their goal isn’t to be angry or attention grabbing but to be able to live without bigotry and discrimination. In the mean time society pays a huge cost allowing that bigotry and discrimination to continue (especially when it comes to the fewer opportunities the marginalised face, and especially the creation of poor and even dangerous neighbourhoods because of it which is bad for everyone). Most of the world are introducing diversity programs in their workplaces (sometimes mandated by law). Some of them are pretty weak, just designed to help people recognise their own biases and avoid making poor biased decisions that can be harmful in the workplace. There are few if any actual changes, just helping people be aware of how discriminatory decisions work in action. You call that social engineering. Of course you would. You have a tribalistic mentality that fiercely avoids any change to the status quo (which is easy because bigotry never affects you) that actually brings about real equality…so fiercely you’ll even deny bigotry when it demonstrably happens. I call it making live tolerable for the marginalised who have every right to enjoy life on as equal a footing as everyone else. By your reasoning then the “desegregation of schools” was social engineering. Allowing women the vote was social engineering. Rules that dealt with sexual harassment in the office was “social engineering”. So yeah…it’s only natural you’d find the scientific investigation of subconscious bigotry and simply pointing it out, as extremely threatening to you and pass it off as social engineering. Grow up.

I just got a dire warning text from a neighbor that a black dude was walking down our country dirt road. Most of what I have seen in my white-guy life looked like reverse discrimination to me. Not really very aware, was I? The white nationalist christian racists that surround me appeared subtle with their smiley faces and the “how ya’ll doin? ” that I receive.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Simon,

You wrote:

Someone said, “black don’t crack”.  In other words, black people tend to look young for their age.

Sometimes, ladies will giddily say that when requested for ID.  When I look at the ID and confirm their age, I smile and reply: “You’ve aged very well!  Enjoy your Chablis!”

And at that moment of commerce, that point in the Universe is Star Trek because we both “Made it so.”

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

lol, is Star Trek your religion?

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Sometimes, ladies will giddily say that when requested for ID.  When I look at the ID and confirm their age, I smile and reply: “You’ve aged very well!  Enjoy your Chablis!”

So there’s a sexual stereotype. Why wouldn’t a woman be there to enjoy a shot or two of single malt or a simple beer? Would you tell a black lady, “Enjoy your crack?”

Just yankin’ your chain, Encogiwhatsit.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

jakelafort wrote:

[…] Probably true of Trump cultists too. But goddamn i hope it is only a tiny minority. It is scary to contemplate how easily we homos are to manipulation. The plasticity that must have given us a survival advantage is leading us to our extinction.

I’m still hearing of the large numbers of Trump supporters, even after a significant number of them disapprove of the insurrection. My take on human nature here is that we evolved with both the alpha male aggressiveness of chimps, and the milder, feminine nature of bonobos. Both kinds of behaviors are emotion-based, rather than cognitively-enhanced forms of self-reflection, with intellectual discourse only newly-enabled by invention of high level languages.

The Trumpian era has relied upon, and amplified the chimp-like alpha male, power-driven kind of cultural evolution, and it’s somehow not just a feature of USA but world politics. High education and deeper intellectual discourse increasingly lose to shorter term, emotionally based tirades and tribalism, openly denigrating progressive thought and action, and the progressive humans themselves at a personal level. Ad hom is the acceptable, tribal way. I’m disheartened by the large number of anti-liberals in my local geographical area that is largely liberal; anti-liberals who openly hate progressive views and the human beings who hold them. (I think this started way back before Trump, e.g. with the most popular talk radio shows. Progressives failed to gain a similar level of talk show popularity, and I think it’s because the “bleeding heart” influence of progressive, more bonobo-like emotional bases tend to reject the intolerance that’s the hallmark of the more conservative-valued tribe.)

I know, here’s where the alpha-males jump in with examples of all the terrible things that progressives are responsible for, like the decline morality and denial of God’s will… those emotional issues that conservatives use in their shame and blame games, while their self-righteousness motivates their conservative leaders to use their political power to (e.g.) first postpone and deny a progressive SCOTUS appointment claiming “we should wait until the next president takes office”, and then proceed to unashamedly pack SCOTUS with conservative appointees to the point of 2/3 majority, claiming “we don’t have to wait until the next president takes office”. This particular example of power grabbing, to me, is an unconscionable corruption of the separation of power of the three branches of government.

It’s easy to blame Trump and his Cult 45, as Trump’s the most evil example of power grabbing and hating on the progressives that comprise the majority of citizenry, and who didn’t vote for him. His paternalistic, power-loving cult loves him for this while they diss progressives as being less than human, or unGod-like. But in the big picture, I feel the corruption of politics can only be addressed successfully starting at the grass roots, citizen level, while realizing the larger problem is the corruption of our two-party politics seeking power with big money influencers, and with other corruptive behaviors like gerrymandering, and other ways to keep non-two-party powers from gaining any ground, much less from gaining any influence. Bipartisanism has always been only the most we could hope for, while other points of view get attention only if they can influence one or two incumbent parties and their voting bases.

/rant

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Unseen wrote:

You know, we aren’t talking enough about the causes of the Trumpist movement. He didn’t create it, he awakened it and gave it permission to reveal itself.

Aha, yes, this. And the rest of that post; +1.

[jakelafortParticipant]

The sociopathic/sadistic/narcissistic leaders are incapable of exercising power without a lot of help. And sure, Trump is a reflection of a significant majority of Americans.

I am so convinced that we are speeding towards our extinction. Unless the messiah comes in the form of science or artificial intelligence then it is all but over. As an aside i wonder how many prospective parents are weighing the future before deciding to conceive. Do you want your offspring to experience the apocalypse?

[PopeBeanieModerator]

Ivy wrote:

How much you wanna bet he’s gonna do something really stupid before Wednesday.

I think he’s burned too many bridges now. I’ve not seen evidence of any American institutions backing him, other than a minority of law enforcement officers acting with Trump Power in their minds. His biggest militarized backers are private groups, like private militias. It wouldn’t shock me if Trump tries to energize them again, but it seems at the moment, anyway, he’d likely take a short term hit on credibility. Many of his backers realize that too, and seem to have influenced him. They all realize that he has to focus more now on a longer term game, outside the White House.

[PopeBeanieModerator]

jakelafort wrote:

Do you want your offspring to experience the apocalypse?

Both of mine are working to avoid the apocalypse. I still think humanity has a chance to redeem itself. An apocalypse is not a viable option… by definition.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

PopeBeanie wrote:

My take on human nature here is that we evolved with both the alpha male aggressiveness of chimps, and the milder, feminine nature of bonobos. Both kinds of behaviors are emotion-based, rather than cognitively-enhanced forms of self-reflection, with intellectual discourse only newly-enabled by invention of high level languages.

If you ask me, its all about forming coalitions and groups.  A human in a group is much stronger than on their own.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Pope, how are your kids engaged in evading the extinction?

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