Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet. Palestinians would receive aid and support from virtually every liberal nation. Plus, there would be songs and concerts, food drives, peace flags, tee-shirts and they would ultimately achieve autonomy from Israel. That IS what they want, RIGHT? LOL.

There you go again with the Hamas = Palestinian false identity thing.

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet.

Israel has been condemned forty-five times by the UNHRC for its actions against Palestine. Whatever grounds Israel uses to justify its policies, the opinion of outsiders like us doesn’t seem to weigh too heavily into that.

[_Robert_]

Unseen wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet. Palestinians would receive aid and support from virtually every liberal nation. Plus, there would be songs and concerts, food drives, peace flags, tee-shirts and they would ultimately achieve autonomy from Israel. That IS what they want, RIGHT? LOL.

There you go again with the Hamas = Palestinian false identity thing.

The political wing has to control its militants.

[_Robert_]

Autumn wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet.

Israel has been condemned forty-five times by the UNHRC for its actions against Palestine. Whatever grounds Israel uses to justify its policies, the opinion of outsiders like us doesn’t seem to weigh too heavily into that.

As long as these offensive, unguided rockets keep flying out of Gaza, Israel can claim justice is being served. I just think the Arabs should try a new approach because what they have been doing for decades doesn’t work.  This looming ground attack is fixing to be a bloody meatgrinder. Give up the hostages, scrap the rockets and RPGs and come to the table right now and stop getting played as fools by Iran and Qatar.

[Unseen]

@ Robert and Jake

It’s called “asymmetrical warfare,” which is when there’s an asymmetry between the abilities and resources of the two sides in the conflict.

Everyone wants Hamas to give up their advantage and fight a war they’d eventually lose if they had to fight like Israel fights, since they don’t have fighter bombers, tanks, access to American satellite data, etc.

Now, I’m not backing Israel or Hamas in this war, but as I’ve said elsewhere, there is only one goal when in engaging in war and that’s to end up the winner. To do so, you do what it takes, even if it means engaging in war crimes.

Now, Robert, you want Hamas to “Give up the hostages, scrap the rockets and RPGs and come to the table.” And on the other side, can you guarantee a repentant Israel ready to own up to its sins and make major concessions, including giving up the principle that Israel must forever be a majority Jewish nation?

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Unseen.

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

Autumn wrote:

_Robert_ wrote:

If the Palestinians were clever, they would drop all arms, eschew all violence and elect a charismatic leader. Israel would have no grounds for their harsh policies and become the biggest pariah-nation on the planet.

Israel has been condemned forty-five times by the UNHRC for its actions against Palestine. Whatever grounds Israel uses to justify its policies, the opinion of outsiders like us doesn’t seem to weigh too heavily into that.

As long as these offensive, unguided rockets keep flying out of Gaza, Israel can claim justice is being served.

Everyone can claim their side is just. but for quite some time now, it’s been a largely one-sided affair. From 2008 to 2020, the UN documented 251 Israeli deaths versus 5590 Palestinian deaths. When it comes to injuries, Palestinians are affected in higher numbers by orders of magnitude.

We can talk about the ifs and buts of what Palestine might have done in an alternate reality where the power dynamic is reversed, but that isn’t our reality. In our reality, Israel’s “defence” is far more brutal than the threat they face and it’s been that way for quite some time.

[Unseen]

@ Jake and Robert

When it comes to human rights violations the U.S. comes to heel (for its evangelical Christian overlords?) and consistently looks the other way. It’s not just me saying that:

[jakelafort]

Davis, from what i know and gather you are unusual. You do question your own assumptions and not simply adopt party lines and hackneyed narratives. You can be persuaded. You can change views based on evidence and arguments.

Ya don’t have to read Zinn to know about America’s sin. A Christian wave of invaders to a land populated already who took what they wanted and committed genocide. Far worse than foundation of Israel where compromise was accepted and a people who had been oppressed all over Europe sought a home where they would be free of the endless persecution from without. Deliberate policy. Treaties not worth the paper written on. No rights for native peoples. Set apart on tiny reservations. Mostly exterminated.

Slavery. End slavery Jim Crow. Lynchings. De Facto slavery into 20th century of Blacks

Late to grant universal suffrage. Open discrimination against anyone with different sexual orientation.

Foreign policy to further its political ideology and discourage communism. No concern whatsoever for the welfare of people where USA has injected itself. Support dictatorship or whatever horrible government? Yes Internment of loyal Japanese citizens during WW11.

I am sick of the hypocrisy in shining the light brightest at Israel and looking other way in other places. I have little to no doubt that if it were still the Ottomans there Or Brits or another Arab country had swallowed that land that we would hear next to nothing about it. And that is how it is in other Arab nations with Palestinians. “Palestinians are one of the most downtrodden ethnic groups in the Middle East, suffering from political and economic hardship—overwhelmingly at the hands of their fellow Arabs.

Palestinians living in most Arab countries are treated as second-class citizens often restricted to living in squalid refugee camps; most are simply not granted citizenship at all.
For example, some half a million Palestinians have been consigned to refugee status in Syria since they emigrated there upon Israel’s independence. Another nearly half a million Palestinians live as refugees in Lebanon. Both groups are denied citizenship. Both are barred from professional employment and do not receive government benefits.

In Jordan, about 2 million Palestinian residents are registered as refugees, more than 600,000 do not hold citizenship and about 370,000 live in Jordanian refugee camps.

Of course, Palestinians living in any Arab nation are subject to severe limitations on civil rights, low standards of living and diminished economic opportunity endemic to the region.

Palestinians living under the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip don’t fare better—they endure the same political abuses and economic depression found in other Middle East dictatorships.

Ironically, despite regular press attacks on Israel for its treatment of Palestinians, the best place in the Middle East to be an Arab of Palestinian descent is Israel. Indeed, Arab Israelis are first-class citizens who enjoy broad civil rights, equal to those in Western countries. Likewise, Arab Israelis can take full advantage of one of the world’s strongest economies and highest standards of living.”

The shame is that Western media coverage obsessively focuses on alleged offenses of the Jewish state while ignoring the cruel, inequitable treatment almost universally suffered by Palestinians in Arab countries. Similarly, Western media show almost no interest in the impressive economic and professional accomplishments of Israel’s Arab citizens.

Palestinians have been disenfranchised or banished in many Arab nations. Arab countries, with the exception of Jordan, have refused to give Palestinians citizenship, depriving them of many rights and privileges that nationals enjoy. They are instead treated as foreigners who can be expelled at will.”

Nothing will change in the middle east on a fundamental level unless and until institutionalized antisemitism is stopped. When this war ends it is my assumption that as soon as the Palestinians in Gaza are able they will adopt more Jihad, more terrorism instead of seeking peace and betterment. All of this focus on zionism is simply antisemitism. You tell me where else on planet earth there is such an obsession with the foundation of a state and or what else can explain the preoccupation? Is there any chance we would talk about the legitimacy of the state of Palestine had the Arab coalition defeated the Jews? 75 yrs later? Would it even make a dent that Jews accepted a compromise and Arabs attacked? We all know the answer to that question. And as i linked those UN schools in Gaza advocating murder of Jews and yet no coverage of the scandal.

Can’t we all just get along?

[jakelafort]

Unseen, it is not exactly argument from popularity but it is just as bad.

If the other side offers a more impressive list of advocates for a particular position have they won the debate? Or should each issue stand or fall on its merits. Additionally there is a tendency to be impressed by a person’s credentials in one are and assume they are an expert in another. Not sure what that fallacy is called or if it is a fallacy because i never paid a great deal of attention to formal or informal fallacies. it is my contention that if you reason well it is obvious what is kosher and what is not.

[Davis]

I agree with much of what you have said Jake. Indeed, I volunteered in the Beirut Palestinian refugee camp and they were, absolutely, treated terribly. I disagree with your assessment that arab citizens in Israel are treated the same as other citizens. They face systemic discrimination, often severe poverty compared with other Israelis, barriers to education and military service (especially rising through the ranks), unfavourable treatment in the court systems, barriers to political representation (or even political intimidation),  underrepresentation in the civil service (even when trilingual).

Saying Palestinian Israeli citizens are treated like first class citizens, would be like saying African Americans are treated equally in the US. In theory, under the law, they are. In practice (and even fragrantly/brazenly) they are not.

Yes, life is better for them there than in Beirut or Amman, and yes, some people are overly or selectively critical of Israeli policies and ignore neighbours, but lets calm down a little and take it easy on the virtue train. All things are not well in Israel.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Additionally there is a tendency to be impressed by a person’s credentials in one are and assume they are an expert in another. Not sure what that fallacy is called or if it is a fallacy because i never paid a great deal of attention to formal or informal fallacies.

There is the word Ultracrepidarian to describe someone who is an expert or authority in one field but who uses that authority to give weight to their opinion in another area they may know little about. An example would be a Professor of Geology expecting their commentary on European Fiscal Policy to be authoritative because “I am a University Professor”.

Story.

[_Robert_]

It’s almost like the events are chiseled in stone. The prophesies must be fulfilled. Death to the infidel, return to the promised land. Even if Israel is mostly secular now, the momentum is overwhelming. Fucking soldier ants, drones and workers are all programmed, and the algorithm is kicked off.

If this ground invasion starts, the death and destruction will be Biblical. The end times are here for so many.

[Davis]

I would refer to Israel only as a moderately secular state, not even as secular as Hungary or Poland at the moment (which are terribly unsecular compared with the rest of Europe. Even though many people are not practicing and many government intuitions and policies are more secular than they easily could be, it is still a state whose origin, being and nature is wrapped up in a religion, and which discriminates against non-Jewish identifying citizens within its own borders.

[jakelafort]

Davis volunteering like that is a trippy yet totally cool act. I had a gf who was almost killed in Sudan. And ya wanna talk bad lives? The aid was filtered through idk like war chiefs. It is funny how all over the world there are issues of aid not going to intended beneficiaries. Actually it is utterly consistent with civilization.

I have read that Ethiopian Jews are discriminated against in Israel as well. But it is worth pointing out that Druze do well in Israel and they are Arabs. I wonder if Druze and Jews date or marry. Such a nice rhyme. Extra extra. Get the news. Druze don’t abuse Jews and Jews don’t harbor animosity against Jews. Well that was not all that skippy.

I condemn Ashkenazi for creating not a state but instead gefilte fish. I encourage all to try it if only once and ask how it is that gefilte fish is characterized as a food.

[jakelafort]

Thanks Reg. Ultra horse shoes.

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