Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[_Robert_]

The moderate Fatah PLO government wasn’t stupid enough for Gazans. They overwhelmingly support their terrorists and are happy to be martyred to increase their personal glory and amount of pain and suffering Islam unleashes on the planet. And the other Muslim leaders are happy to have them as sacrificial pawns so they can consolidate their hate for democracy, secularism and rational thinking.

Just look at the suffering Islam has caused in the previously happy land of Sweden. Tired of all the liberals bowing down to the worse collection of illiberal ideas ever.

Look at this wiki page on “honor killings in Sweden”. Doesn’t even mention Islam. Such bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor-related_violence_in_Sweden

 

[Davis]

Robert, you are, genuinely verging into the territory of islamophobia. You are in that grey zone now, closer to Islamophobia than not. No one here on this site, condones the destructive forces of religion, Islam is by no means, any exception. No one here is a fan of Hamas’s policies, nor does anyone here do anything other than fully condemn acts which attack or terrorise citizens and non-combatants.

We have also dealt with no end to Islamic terrorism in Europe. In Madrid, the train station next to where I live was bombed, the square I walked though most days had a truck attack. Where I studied in Belgium, the airport and metro was bombed, there were synagogue stabbings and just a couple weeks ago there was a football stadium attack.

I agree with policies that fight and limit religious extremism and go after those who would attack/terrorise civilians. You are going beyond this and painting the Islamic world, and especially Palestine with an “evil” pain brush, making sweeping hyper generalisations. Maybe, just take a step back and note that nothing happening in the Islamic world is remotely unique.

You need look just into the settlements to see ultra conservative Jewish communities who use religion as an excuse to terrorise innocent local Palestinians, Christian religious violence and extremism in the Balkans, the Caucasus’s, Nigeria and Ethiopia, deadly hinduist extremism in India and even violent Buddhist extremism in Sri Lanka and Myanmar. Yes, I would agree that Islamic terrorism is a very high concern in the Western World, that we should condemn it unabashedly, and that our policies which work against it should be strong (in concert with policies that work to attack the root causes of it as well), but singling them out, hypergeneralising aobut them and boogeymaning them is not helpful, it is toxic.

[TheEncogitationer]

Robert,

Funny you should mention “the moderate Fatah.”. Their leader Yasser Arafat (*PBUH!* Be Unto Him) was the one who practically invented air piracy.

I can’t find it anywhere yet, but there was a photo of Yasser Arafat in the immediate aftermath of 9/11/2001, looking so “Shocked!…Shocked!” at the ultimate nihilistic fruits of his own creation. Sickly humorous but priceless!

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling

[_Robert_]

These people literally hate Jews more than they love their own children. Imagine if a Muslim caliphate had secured Spain and Italy for good those many years ago. In Hamas’s host country of Iran today, sodomy (as in being gay) is a capital offence and people are frequently executed for it. In Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Yemen and Mauritania, sodomy is also punishable by death, depending on which way the wind blows. I see gays campaigning for the very people who would kill them in an instant. It is ironic how Muslim men in Pakistan do love their masculinity and patriarchy and walk around holding hands and kissing each other. Then they will turn around a stone a woman (or sister, perhaps) in the street for the mere claim of adultery.

Well of course, after all, drawing a cartoon of their pedophile prophet or writing a “blasphemous”, anti-nonsense book is worthy of a fatwa. Even so called moderates can’t say two sentences without mentioning Allah and everything is according to his will. It’s a disgusting attitude that enables the extremists time and time again.

Former Muslims are the bravest people I know. Openly gay Muslims are probably next, but not a lot of them over there, are there. So, let’s stop pandering to Islam, shall we? They don’t even respect you when you do, they think you are an idiot. So, no I don’t fear Islam. But I do hate it and I will fight against anyone who wants to force its bullshit upon MY life. Hitchens had their number, and he was 100% correct. They want to be the final religion that needs to take over the world.

Feel free to correct me for any factual errors I have made.

[Unseen]

@ Robert

Yeah, Islam is bullshit and its proponents are given to cruel extremes. They are still living in The Middle/Dark Ages.

None of that justifies the excesses of Israel, which speaks for itself and its internal power politics, often driven by hatred for the people they undemocratically and without any moral justification forced off the land and either out of the country or into the “open air prison” of Gaza. The ones not driven off are treated like noncitizens even though they technically are.

Israel may be less brutal than Hamas, but Hamas at least is driven by a legitimate grievance.

[_Robert_]

I would say self-imposed grievances. They had many opportunities for two-state solution but insist on death-to-Israel. Instead of using water pipes for water or using fertilizers to grow food, they make rockets from them in their miles of terror tunnels. Hamas does not even let civilians seek refuge in the miles of tunnels and then launch their rockets from schoolyards.

If this war is what it takes to separate the people from their beloved Hamas terrorist leaders, then despite all the killing, they will still be better off in the future. Israel and any rational Palestinians left have to have a post Hamas plan ready to go otherwise it will just be another Islamic terror organization that takes over. No shortage of them.

This religion normalizes terrorism such as “Jihad” and “Fatwas” and has explicit verses to commit violence against non-believers .

Qur’an 9:28—O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 9:30—The Jews call Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Qur’an 9:31—They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ, the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

Qur’an 9:32—Fain would they extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it).

Qur’an 9:33—It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to prevail it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them.

Qur’an 9:111—Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah’s way, so they slay and are slain.

Qur’an 9:123—O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness.

Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost.

Qur’an 48:29—Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves.

Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims.”

Sunan An-Nasa’i 3099—The Prophet said: “Whoever dies without having fought or having thought of fighting, he dies on one of the branches of hypocrisy.”

Sunan Ibn Majah 2763—The Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever meets Allah with no mark on him (as a result of fighting) in His cause, he will meet Him with a deficiency.”

Sahih al-Bukhari 6922—Allah’s Messenger said, “If anyone changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.”

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.

[jakelafort]

I essentially agree with Robert. Islam is the big cheese. ALL western religion is destructive and causes great harm. But Christianity is waning and has mostly lost its power and therefore influence. Judaism is a puny religion that spawned the others but does not want converts. They’re not banging on doors asking if you have accepted so and so & such and such. Islam is a major league cult and political institution. It spews out human bots whose ethos is one and same as ISLAM. It is not content to have Muslims adopt the ways of host nations and assimilate. When in Rome fuck the Romans and do as we instruct you!

Ayan Hirsi Ali has recently written a book titled Prey. She explains how the liberal policy permitting significant numbers of Muslims into Europe has caused great increases in sexual violence to European women. There are sections of big cities in Europe where women do not go for fear of being sexually victimized.

So instead of asking how we help these victims of the cult we use liberalism and perhaps in play is a sort of guilt for European hegemony and exploitation to make amends for its past. What can the world do to counter the evil cult? What the Chinese have done to the Uyghurs is evil. The only thing i can think and have no practical way to implement is critical thinking. It ought in an ideal world be the paramount objective of all schools. Start to finish. In the same way religion imposes its nonsense on its followers critical thinking from the earliest ages is there to counter it and indeed all ideology. Ideology is a human sickness and will be the death of us.

Islam and institutionalized antisemitism in the middle east has caused a climate of hatred in which as Robert says people hate Jews more than they love their children. The fact the unending stream of racist propaganda against Jews is encouraged and unchallenged all over the middle east and even UN schools are teaching the same and ought to be exposed and challenged. If it is i never learn about it. I only see tired narratives and linguistic buzz words. If ya hear just a few buzz words you will know the argument that is being reproduced ad nauseum. The far left pushing those antisemitic narratives while failing to oppose Islam has contributed to the problems.( We hear 0 from liberal quarters about the treatment of Palestinians in Arab nations. Only Israel. The very focus on the legitimacy of Israel and no other place in the world along with the putative religious basis for Jews being there while hearing nothing about the Muslim religious basis for rejecting the compromise state and wanting it all is omitted.) Concomitantly the far left or some element of it has adopted antisemitic policies against individual Jews or Jews as a whole that have 0 to do with objections to the government of Israel. Fighting racism they become racists. Intellectually i think the far left gets more respect than the far right. So there is a veneer of respect for antisemitism as a legitimate way of thinking.

Where i differ from Robert is framing the Palestinians as stupid. I mean yes they are. But we all are. We are acted upon instead of thinking for ourselves. So few humans have the wherewithal to reject the kind of religious and cultural indoctrination that Palestinians face. And oh what an easy scapegoat Israel and the Jews! And as i say this move by Hamas will in my estimation only augment that horrible way of thinking and self destructive mission. I see more terrorism. More Jihad.

A

[Davis]

Jake you’ve gone full fledged Muslims are a malevolent force that have turned Europe into a land where women flee from rapists. You have no problem (rightfully) complaining about anti-Semitism while you brazenly participate in shameless gross Islamophobic narratives.

Gross Jake. Gross.

I’m glad you read a book. A book by a bigot. Reading a book by a bigot isn’t a free pass on bigotry.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 5 months ago by Davis.

[jakelafort]

Davis, NO.

Islam is a cult. Muslims are victims of that cult. That is how i see it.

I don’t see her as a bigot. If anyone is qualified to KNOW ISLAM it is Ali. I assume you know about her life so i won’t encapsulate it here. I think her sentiments are liberal.

[Unseen]

_Robert_ wrote:

I would say self-imposed grievances. They had many opportunities for two-state solution but insist on death-to-Israel.

How was their land being taken from them and given to Europeans a “self-imposed grievance”? Your answer should be a textbook example of pretzel logic.

Instead of using water pipes for water or using fertilizers to grow food, they make rockets from them in their miles of terror tunnels. Hamas does not even let civilians seek refuge in the miles of tunnels and then launch their rockets from schoolyards.

Yeah, that’s called “asymmetrical warfare” which is using what works when you can’t match the enemy’s hardware and intelligence capabilities. Israel is basically using its own citizens as a kind of human shield by arguing that attacking them is horrific while their own response endangers Palestinian civilians many of whom, I’m sure, would rather live in peace and not under the rule of Hamas.

This religion normalizes terrorism such as “Jihad” and “Fatwas” and has explicit verses to commit violence against non-believers .

Nice try, but this war isn’t about Muslims vs. nonbelievers, it’s about the land confiscation that disproportionately disfavored the native Muslims by bringing in Europeans to take their land away and force an exodus from the lands they had worked and the land and homes they’d held for as long as anyone could remember. It’s over an historical injustice. I could say “as they view it” but many people with no dog in the fight but with a basic sense of justice see it that way as well. Can you provide and argument that the creation of Israel and its consequences were just? Got any more pretzel logic for that one?

[_Robert_]

You keep talking about “just/justice” as if that is a real thing. Grow up already. The Palestinians need to get in line with the billions, if not trillions of people who didn’t get “justice”, including 6 million murdered Jews. That’s a religious concept, that somehow, we all “deserve” justice, if not on Earth, then in some fake afterlife. History is all about wars, tribalism and displacement. It got so bad during WW1 and 2 that they finally came up with “international law” and that still doesn’t work. Russia, I am talking to you.

They almost had a solution. Arafat finally came around. Carter worked his ass off. Even the Soviets wanted to help. But Arafat couldn’t deliver the goods, and Sadat paid with his life. In fact, Hamas made this attack just as Israel and the Saudis were making progress.

Not religious? bullshit. Read those verses I posted, and you might get a clue. This is all Jihad.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

I was in a debate today with some people who said they were Pro-Palestinian activists and that Israel should give them back the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.

I asked them 2 questions:

When did Israel occupy the West Bank and why did they.

When did Israel occupy the Gaza Strip and why did they.

Wrong on both.  I told them they conceal information like that in books.

[Unseen]

@ Robert

And all that shit would not have happened had the Palestinians been given basic human respect in the first place rather than being treated as prawns in a huge cosmic game of aquatic chess. If we all die in a nuclear holocaust, the creation of Israel will likely be a major contributing factor.

[Unseen]

Thw response to Hamas’s attack goes beyond what can be justified and into revenge/retribution territory. That’s not just my own opinion:

The head of the United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees told a U.N. emergency meeting Monday “an immediate humanitarian cease-fire has become a matter of life and death for millions,” accusing Israel of “collective punishment” of Palestinians and the forced displacement of civilians. (source)

[—]

_Robert_ wrote:

You keep talking about “just/justice” as if that is a real thing. Grow up already. The Palestinians need to get in line with the billions, if not trillions of people who didn’t get “justice”, including 6 million murdered Jews.

If the holocaust were still happening, one would hope we would deem it unjust for it to continue.

[Author]

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