Sunni Islam and Shia Islam Together Again…And Against Us!

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Unseen,

I made no analogy. I simply took three positions, condemning self-inflicted, senseless death caused by religious nonsence, condemning a mass-merdering group motivated by religion named Hamas, and upholding the Natural Right of self-defense for Israelis, Jews, and humqns in generql.

The only common denominators they all have is that they are all rational and life-affirming and yet condemned as bigoted, and that I am beyond caring who calls these positions bigoted.

As I said with Autumn, Fuck you!

[jakelafortParticipant]

Autumn wrote:

Nah. If you’re going to keep up with the ‘death cult’ nonsense, those are the rules of the game we’ll play by. You don’t have arguments. You don’t have a position. You don’t even have personhood. You have a culty mindvirus. That’s how we get to do things. I get to decide for you that those are your motivations and limitations, which is to say the cult of colonialism and Americanism—two of the most deadly cults known to humankind. And I get to pigeonhole you however I like reaching back as far into history as I like ignoring any context that paints your actions as anything more than cultish fervour.

Because that’s the Jake school of logic. That’s the level of argument it presents. That’s the level of competence it possess.

While I am obviously making fun of you, there is a part of me that wonders how much you have swallowed the Flavor-Aid of American exceptionalism, not in defence of American foreign and military policy, specifically, but in distorted notions of what constitutes ‘self-defence’, the legitimization of occupation and interference, and the way you seem to be able to categorize actions as bad yet try to present some contextual rationalization. You have a lot of glaring blind spots that I can’t help think are the byproduct of what was normalized through your cultural surroundings. And yes the influence of yesteryear and yestercentury is stronger than a diamond.

No clue what you are specifically referring to in american exceptionalism. I have given America its due where i think it warranted and been critical where i think it deserving. So my glaring blind spots are caused by my cultural surroundings? Gee i wonder what it would be like to be in a death cult? Would that have any bearing on my thinking?

You should go into the Islamic world and test your hypothesis. Reveal your identity and see how individualistic, compassionate and understanding the oppressed peoples are. Let them know how sympathetic you are to the oppression caused by the Colonialist Israelis. That should drum up a wellspring of good mojo. And that would be the actual and tragic denouement.

Sorry you can’t handle facts. It is a death cult. And i said already if it were some 500 or 1000 odd cultists in some fringe cult with identical precepts and behavior western people would look upon the cultists as victims and do what they could to help and to deprogram.

[jakelafortParticipant]

I am reminded of an exchange in a theist/atheist forum today. The Atheist said tongue in cheek. The poor victims in gaza will be in paradise. So it calls comes out well in the end. Big approval from the Muslim.

[DavisModerator]

All of these hate driven obscene overgeneralisations, demonising nearly a billion people…that’s not bigotry. How dare you label over the top blanket vile stereotypes as bigotry. I don’t take kindly to other people’s bigotry being called out.

Too bad. For all the talk about moral superiority, the more “civilised” part of the world…sure is a massive shortage of self awareness of just how steeped it all is in regressive age old hateful bigotry.

I’m done with this conversation. You can justify all of the over the top murder you like because of “context” and your bigoted stereotypes. So be it. If you wanna convince yourself it is all somehow some magical special justified to demonise nearly a billion people, so be it. It’s your cognitive dissonance.

Despite what we are saying, the conflict won’t end. There will be an unspeakable massacre by Jihaddist extreemists, and an even more brutal over the top rampage through the occupied territories. It will continue ad infinitum as neither side has terms or conditions that can ever be reasonably satisfied nor do leaders have an incentive to genuinely work towards it. Both sides will be favourited by others and either bigoted antisemitism or bigoted islamophobia will reign. Long live endless hateful bigotry (which by the way, isn’t bigotry, how dare you say so, fuck you!).

Rest of this thread…ignored.

[jakelafortParticipant]

I am not going to respond to Davis cuz these exchanges are becoming nasty. Just gonna engender bad feelings and accomplish nothing.

But i am curious whether anyone has had a change of opinion about issues in the middle east between Arabs/Palestinians and Israelis, or about Islam and its nature? I doubt it. But it would be interesting.

[—Participant]

autumn wrote:

While I am obviously making fun of you, there is a part of me that wonders how much you have swallowed the Flavor-Aid of American exceptionalism, not in defence of American foreign and military policy, specifically, but in distorted notions of what constitutes ‘self-defence’, the legitimization of occupation and interference, and the way you seem to be able to categorize actions as bad yet try to present some contextual rationalization. You have a lot of glaring blind spots that I can’t help think are the byproduct of what was normalized through your cultural surroundings.

jakelafort wrote:

No clue what you are specifically referring to in american exceptionalism. I have given America its due where i think it warranted and been critical where i think it deserving. So my glaring blind spots are caused by my cultural surroundings?

Again, not in defence of America specifically. It’s the same rationalizations and patterns of thought commonplace in American exceptionalism. We had to do the awful thing because we were the good guys and they were the bad guys. While you may be able to critique such claims when applied to America, it seems part of you still succumbs to that level of simplistic, propagandistic thinking.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Sounds like Rudyard Kipling-think.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Britannica: American exceptionalism, idea that the United States of America is a unique and even morally superior country for historical, ideological, or religious reasons. Proponents of American exceptionalism generally pair the belief with the claim that the United States is obligated to play a special role in global politics.

Assertions of American exceptionalism are generally made on the basis of the country’s founding. Proponents of the concept argue that the United States was uniquely founded on republican ideals rather than centring on a historical community or ruling elite (though much has been written about the privileged backgrounds of the Founding Fathers, who included slaveholders). These principles for good governance are laid out in the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, both of which occasionally are described as divinely inspired. To follow these documents in the manner prescribed by the Founding Fathers is therefore posited by many believers in American exceptionalism as the key to national success. Moreover, that approach is held to be universally applicable, so that spreading the way of life theoretically underpinned by those documents beyond the borders of the United States is considered a social good. Because believers in American exceptionalism have skewed Republican in the 21st century, this way of life is usually said to include a reverence for the Judeo-Christian God, advocacy of a free market, and the prioritization of individual rights over the needs of the collective.

That does not describe my views at all.

[—Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

That does not describe my views at all.

I’m talking about your pattern of thinking. It’s really not that fucking complicated of a point. You can not possibly be this obtuse.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Autumn, color me obtuse.

It is quantum entanglement gone awry. Neurons all gnarly n shit. Particles dancing the wrong way. It clears up after a night of sleep and a hike.

[UnseenParticipant]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

I made no analogy. I simply took three positions, condemning self-inflicted, senseless death caused by religious nonsence, condemning a mass-merdering group motivated by religion named Hamas, and upholding the Natural Right of self-defense for Israelis, Jews, and humqns in generql.

Then you don’t know what an analogy is. No surprise. Like your compadre Robert, you want the whole to pay for the  sins of the few.

You guys are essentually arguing for revenge. The Israelis are killing something like fifteen Palestinians (nearly half of them kids) for every Israeli soldier. The toll far surpasses the “eye for an eye” biblical standard or even The Trumpster’s “You hit me, I’ll hit back 10 times harder.”

All too often, the West has noticed the sins of the Muslims and turned their head or even justified the excesses of the more familiar Judeo-Christian states.

The more brutal Israel’s response, the more terrorists they (and we) will face in the future.

Great work, men!!!

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Unseen.

[_Robert_Participant]

Israel doesn’t want or purposely attempt to kill non-combatant Palestinians. That would be incredibly easy to do if they wanted. In fact, peaceful coexistence is written in their constitution. You all know what Hamas has officially called for: total destruction of Jews. Just say that out loud a few times.  This body-count is all on Hamas. You are arguing on behalf of the Iranian government, who is really running the “Palestinian cause”.

Hamas is not very different from the right-wing values of Trumpistan:

-No separation of church and state, women have no reproductive rights, persecution of political enemies, and the overthrow of democracy. It is amazing how similar the Republican party today is to the Iranian government in techniques and practice.

Of course, liberals are always easy to dupe, using their short-term thinking. As if going easy on Jihadists is going to make them “more friendly in the future. How stupid. That will just be seen as a sign of weakness and once again the spineless West is ripe for the taking, by whatever means available. I have read the transcript of a Jihadist’s phone call (from a dead Jew’s phone) as he was murdering 10 people. His loving family was so proud.

I think Israel could be smarter about eradicating Hamas and it seems they are letting up a bit under pressure. They can be more patient. However, Iran should be put under pressure. Israel cannot just let Hamas and Iran go on as before. Iran and a few other players are the real issue here. If they were out of the picture, Hamas and Hezbollah would eventually crumble if they international community helped the Palestinians move on without a Jihadist government.

[_Robert_Participant]

jakelafort wrote:

I am not going to respond to Davis cuz these exchanges are becoming nasty. Just gonna engender bad feelings and accomplish nothing. But i am curious whether anyone has had a change of opinion about issues in the middle east between Arabs/Palestinians and Israelis, or about Islam and its nature? I doubt it. But it would be interesting.

My opinions changed a while back. As a xtian, I really didn’t have an opinion about the practice of Islam. As I gave up belief and began studying religions as a secularist; only then did I realize how destructive religion is. Islam, however, takes the cake. Death is the penalty for leaving the religion, it is growing in numbers, and it is just a huge basket of antiquated, bad ideas and goes against everything a secular humanist stands for. Christianity has already had its darkest days, it would seem.

[jakelafortParticipant]

Robert:

My opinions changed a while back. As a xtian, I really didn’t have an opinion about the practice of Islam. As I gave up belief and began studying religions as a secularist; only then did I realize how destructive religion is. Islam, however, takes the cake. Death is the penalty for leaving the religion, it is growing in numbers, and it is just a huge basket of antiquated, bad ideas and goes against everything a secular humanist stands for. Christianity has already had its darkest days, it would seem.

Well said. I was not exposed to religion. Atheists all around. But i read theologians and apologists when i was a kid. Thought it pathetic. Only a few times inside churches and synagogues. I did not as a kid understand how anybody could be so stupid. I think AI if it awakens or super intelligent aliens might view us as we view ants.

Islam is seriously fucked up. Like you can’t do any better in a work of fiction. And for so many it is there life. It controls everything. It makes people so so so much worse than their innate and natural inclinations. I am gonna resist the urge to rant.

[TheEncogitationerParticipant]

Kake and Robert,

Believe it or not, there is something good to come of all this: You get a how-the-other-half-lives tutorial on what’s like to be falsely accused of bigotry and how turgid and ponderously stupid it gets.

You also get an idea of why more and more people are not so much renouncing education, but taking The Eric Hoffer Fellowship route. They are avoiding the wolves’ den of Post-Truth Ivy League Academia, going the route of lucrative IT and VoTech schooling, and saving the Humanities and Liberal Arts studies for their off-time. And between the present intellectual zeitgeist and the WuFlu Pandemic, more parents of all schools of thought and all backgrounds discovered Homeschooling and Unschooling, so their children hopefully don’t have to live with this crock of crap in their future

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling and addendum

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