Sunday School

Sunday School 25th April 2021

This topic contains 126 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 3 days, 5 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 127 total)
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  • #37471

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Robert,

    Also, it is not good that major advocates for free thought keep getting ‘busted’ for one thing or another. The truth of the accusations against Lawrence Krauss, David Silverman and Neil deGrasse Tyson remain murky in my mind since we did not have criminal trials. Their message gets muted in scandal. I didn’t research the circumstances to even form an opinion..the day is too short and data incomplete for all that.

    To my way of thinking, anytime that there are accusations such as those directed against these men, there needs to be police called, officers of the law bound by The Bill of Rights to only search and arrest based on probable cause and who are bound by Miranda v. Arizona to read the accused their due process rights.

    And once the police arrive, there needs to be photos snapped, prints dusted, witnesses interviewed, swabs flying, and rape kits open where appropriate.  And all evidence and samples gathered need to be rushed ASAP to the best, most competant lab available to avoid spoiling of the evidence.  If testing results reveal a crime has taken place, officers need to be required to pursue suspects and perform arrests.

    And there needs to be sober, somber Bill Curtis narrating in the background, Mike Post playing *BOOM!-BOOM!-BOOM* and Pete Townsend screaming “Who The Fuck Are You.”

    And after any trial, if the accused men are found innocent, there should be civil damages and criminal counter-charges of false accusation and imprisonment.

    Otherwise, these kind of accusations are just a lynching bee by a bunch of gossipy, mad, wet biddies, mini-Witch Manias creeping their way into the Twenty-First Century.

    #37472

    Autumn
    Participant

    Otherwise, these kind of accusations are just a lynching bee by a bunch of gossipy, mad, wet biddies, mini-Witch Manias creeping their way into the Twenty-First Century.

    Your commitment to bizarre black and white thinking is noteworthy, though I suppose I have seen better. Don’t worry; I’m sure you’ll get there in time.

    #37473

    Davis
    Moderator

    Ahhh yes. When people are accused of trading fraud, beating their children, theft, assault, libel or murder…we are quick to take the charge seriously (or even believe it). This is most especially the case if 20 different people who don’t know one another accuse a person of theft or fraud. Honestly if 20 people who didn’t know one another accused Krauss of defrauding them (all with lawyers and legal briefs) it would be strange if you didn’t take the charge seriously. And when a man accuses another man of sexual assault or rape, we are almost certain to believe it. If a man accuses a woman of sexual assault just about nobody would doubt it. But when women, even dozens of women who don’t know one another…accuse a man of sexual harassment, assault or rape the answer for many is:

    Ehhh. I don’t know. This all sounds a little murky. I’m going to let the courts decide this

    This is just a continuation of centuries of people not believing women when they are treated as sexual objects because since civilisation and power structures began (and still to a notable extent) women are, when it serves people, simply sexual objects. Getting police to take their claims of sexual assault is still hard even in the #metoo age. Women have to fight to even get police to fill out the police reports. In so many other cases where an investigation will happen…with women alleging sexual assault it is a “he says she says” thing. The standard response by a lot of people is “she’s exaggerating”, “she’s getting back at him for rejecting him” or even worse “what was she doing drunk alone in a bar”? Even in Steuvenville where two boys admitted raping a passed out girl at a party, half the town vilainised the girl for ruining those adorable athletic heroes of the highschool’s lives and ruining the town’s reputation. This…in the 21st century only a few years ago.

    Even Simon’s great hero Jordan Peterson says that cases where women are drunk (to the point they are nearly passed out) and it’s a party atmosphere…well…you know…it’s complicated. Things are complicated. In reality the answer is no: it’s not complicated. You cannot consent if you are unconscious. If you think otherwise then you think the other person is a sexual object and you are entitled to sex even against the non-consent of an autonomous being.

    As long as people tend to take most other accusations and charges seriously, but immediately show serious doubt and scepticism over one particular charge and one specific demographic of that charge (particularly adult women accusing men of sexual assault or rape) then that act is simply far less of a serious crime or issue than others. This is especially the case when one’s “hero” is the one being accused. And this is all despite the fact that the sheer numbers of sexual assault victims (both men and women) are becoming more public and easily available (commonly known that is is all under-reported). That rape culture is rife on university campuses, on sports teams and online forums.

    #37474

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Ehhh. I don’t know. This all sounds a little murky. I’m going to let the courts decide this

     

    If the police don’t take accusations seriously that is a different problem. If a police report is never even filed that is a problem as well.

    Bearing in mind the the false accusation rate is low, it happens.  Who thinks the presumption of guilt by some court of public opinion is the right thing?

    PS…I have been falsely (informally) accused of wrongdoing by one woman or another nearly once a week  for the past 45 years, LOL.

    #37475

    Davis
    Moderator

     Who thinks the presumption of guilt by some court of public opinion is the right thing?

    This wouldn’t be such a big deal if “fear of the court of public opinion” was consistently applied to allegations. It is not. Claims are generally believed for most other crimes. They are not for sexual assault or rape. In other words: 20 different people accuse Elon Musk of serious financial fraud? Oh my god that is serious. 20 women accuse Elon Musk of sexual harassment: Oh my gawd…let’s not pile drive the guy. He needs to have his day in court. After all we are innocent until proven guilty.

    This is bad enough…but it gets even worse when you focus on the demographics. Five different male soldiers accuse their commanding officer of drugging them and raping them at different places and dates: Oh my gawd! That’s crazy. They should at the very least suspend him without pay if not fire him! Five female soldiers accuse their commanding officer of the same: I don’t think he should automatically suspend him without pay. I mean, this is a democracy where you are innocent until proven guilty.

    It’s the double standard, both for the crime itself…and the demographics of who accuses who of what. If I heard this kind of “concern” or “scepticism” for other crimes or the same demographics I’d take it seriously. But when…being accused of other crimes can just as much destroy your life and has the same rate of “false accusations” and yet other crimes are believed while in very much particular multiple women accusing men of sexual assault is met with “let’s not jump to conclusions” (and this is usually the ONLY case where people don’t want anyone jumping to conclusion) it truly reeks to high shit of bias, disinterest, apathy and the old way of doing and seeing things.

    #37476

    _Robert_
    Participant

    It is one particular manifestation that stems from a legacy of issues, and I blame religion for much of it. I think this diagram helps me visualize and put it all in perspective since I still struggle with the term “rape culture”.

     

    #37477

    Unseen
    Participant

    Personally, the many worlds theory fails the Occam’s Razor test.

    I think it’s a simple hypothesis – multiple possibilities, corresponding multiple worlds – but surely that amount of proliferating universes would be hard to find room for. As far as multiple universes go, I think the “Swiss Cheese bubbles” idea might be realistic. That universes exist as bubbles of spacetime within a larger, higher-dimensional medium.

    It strikes me as a solution in search of a problem, which is where Occam’s Razor comes in.

    #37478

    Unseen
    Participant

    It is one particular manifestation that stems from a legacy of issues, and I blame religion for much of it. I think this diagram helps me visualize and put it all in perspective since I still struggle with the term “rape culture”.

    This is an example of how a graphic representation can imply more than is actually there.  I think the pyramid format with that arrow implies to many a causal connection between the layers. You know, pay women unequally then yada yada yada rape and murder, as though one leads inexorably the other in a slippery slope kind of situation.

    One could instead view the same continuum without the causal implications: “this is worse than that which is worse than that…etc.” like a series of color patches forming a scale with white on one end and black on the other end with various degrees of the color gray in between.

    I think this is a good example of a principle I like to follow: Don’t get your data from advocacy or special interest groups.

    You can get alarming statistics by manipulating definitions. No longer is a rape forced sex or sex with an incapacitated person. Rape is defined in very broad and hazy ways in many studies. Also, it seems reasonable to think that more motivated people are likely to respond to an anonymized questionnaire, skewing the statistics in an alarming direction.

    You’ll even find studies that will call two people having sex while both are under the influence an instance of rape, because the female was unable to give legal consent. Well, what’s good for the goose: If we can’t allow that a drunk coed can give legal consent, how can we call an equally or more drunk sex partner a rapist if, tables turned, he couldn’t give consent, either?

    But if you’re a women’s advocacy group, you’ll be looking for studies that seem to justify your alarmism.

    Here’s a suggestion: If a study offers unbelievable statistics, strongly consider not believing them.

    An alarmist rape study not only fosters a culture of victimhood among women, but portrays a world in which most men are predatory rapists. Nonsense!

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #37480

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I think the idea of the pyramid is that the transgressions become more extreme and intense nearer to the top.  It’s a way of classifying sexual rudeness/assault in terms of severity, I suppose.

    This is not the same, somehow, as Richard Dawkins pointing out a similar concept to the SkepChick who was propositioned in the elevator.  The context was different, and loaded with the dynamic of wanting to hit back, instead of understand or listen.

    #37481

    Unseen
    Participant

    I think the idea of the pyramid is that the transgressions become more extreme and intense nearer to the top. It’s a way of classifying sexual rudeness/assault in terms of severity, I suppose. This is not the same, somehow, as Richard Dawkins pointing out a similar concept to the SkepChick who was propositioned in the elevator. The context was different, and loaded with the dynamic of wanting to hit back, instead of understand or listen.

    I think the arrow is clearly implying that there is a direction of flow. Allow rape jokes or disparities in pay and it’s a contributory cause of rape.

    Plenty a comic has told a rape joke who would never himself consider engaging in rape. I’m sure men who consider rape may enjoy a rape joke, but not for sick nervous chuckles, but because it’s something they’d like to do.

    But causation? “Oh, Bill Barr told a rape joke so it’s okay to go out and rape a woman.” Surely you see how farfetched that is. Likewise, I can tell a Jewish mother joke (Jewish mothers are notoriously controlling, which they do by inducing guilt). This may be a stereotype but that doesn’t keep it from being a true stereotype. In fact, it’s so true that Jewish comics tell Jewish mother jokes and get laughs from largely Jewish audiences.

    I suspect that if the researchers stuck with the more common conception of rape without engaging in definition creep, the stats would be far less amazing…and accurate.

    I despair, though, of ever getting accurate rape statistics because rape victims are notoriously hesitant to go to the authorities while they are probably more likely to fill out an anonymous survey than nonvictims.

    #37482

    _Robert_
    Participant

    …portrays a world in which most men are predatory rapists. Nonsense!

    I agree of course, Unseen, and the video was good, however the Trump/Covid19 era has taught me something. Regardless of social  studies, data, causality, etc…many people are complete ideologs.

    I was amazed at how all my friends who identified themselves as Trump supporters were also anti-mask, pro-Mexico wall, pro gun, pro life, drain the swamp ….. ad nauseam.

    As someone who strives to evaluate issues independently… I was unaware that so many Americans are such black and white ideologs. So yeah while the bottom of the triangle may not represent causality to the top, I think it does perhaps represent an ideology.

    #37483

    Davis
    Moderator

    Unseen it sounds like you are trying to downplay the extremely high numbers of sexual assault, harassment and rape by insinuating that some of it is exaggerated (a pretty common trope throughout all of history that women who claim rape are hysterical and overstating things) or that because a few questionable cases of non-consensual sex are including in reports that the numbers in general are tainted. They are not. 13% of women in the US and 6% of men have faced VIOLENT rape at least once. This is not remotely an insignificant number and it points to an absolutely out of control rampant rape culture society wide. Women are certainly not the only victims but men are almost always the perpetrators. Pointing this out does not insinuate that all men or even most men are rapists or instigators of rape culture. But silence, hostile scepticism/doubt, defensiveness, barriers to reporting it and being taken seriously, a 1% conviction rate and not intervening when rape culture or rape talk is around you…certainly contributes to rape culture.

    If you are in a locker room and a guy jokes about how he wanted to fuck this girl but she was passed out and another guy says “why didn’t you…you totally should have” and people laugh and not a single person calls it out on how vile that is, you are definitely contributing to rape culture. Multiply this by dozens and dozens of endless objectifying comments and jokes and nobody questioning it and people even tacitly encouraging it does not in itself incite someone to commit rape. But it certainly helps to normalise it. An outlandish rape joke is one thing (morally ambiguous at the very best) a “let’s rape some sluts tonight” joke is another.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Davis.
    #37485

    Unseen
    Participant

    @davis

    I made no reference to false accusations or exaggerations.

    I simply made the point that rape victims who wanted to stay out of the “system” and so didn’t report their rapes to the cops will likely jump at the chance to unload in the case of an anonymous survey, whereas women with nothing to report are much more likely to opt out of the survey.

    You strayed so far from that point that I wonder what’s going on in that head of yours.

    I’m having a hard time imagining what a “let’s rape some sluts tonight” joke would sound like.  Do you actually know one? You’ll have to convince me (and probably us) that there is such a thing.

    Elsewhere, I ran into a piece claiming that more than 90% of college women have experienced at least one sexual assault, an assertion so fuzzy that it’s meaningless. I’d like to see their definitions of what constitutes a sexual assault or rape.

    A pinch or pat on the bottom deserves a slap in the face and an ejection from a party or bar, but is it a sexual assault? It’s certainly not even worth calling the cops. An actual rape is one accomplished by force or by incapacitating the victim or opportunistically using an incapacity to accomplish sex with a victim who is unable to resist.

    There are many wrinkles and nuances so that operating with a fuzzy definition doesn’t enlighten anyone.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #37488

    Autumn
    Participant

    I think the idea of the pyramid is that the transgressions become more extreme and intense nearer to the top. It’s a way of classifying sexual rudeness/assault in terms of severity, I suppose. This is not the same, somehow, as Richard Dawkins pointing out a similar concept to the SkepChick who was propositioned in the elevator. The context was different, and loaded with the dynamic of wanting to hit back, instead of understand or listen.

    I think the arrow is clearly implying that there is a direction of flow. Allow rape jokes or disparities in pay and it’s a contributory cause of rape. Plenty a comic has told a rape joke who would never himself consider engaging in rape. I’m sure men who consider rape may enjoy a rape joke, but not for sick nervous chuckles, but because it’s something they’d like to do. But causation? “Oh, Bill Barr told a rape joke so it’s okay to go out and rape a woman.” Surely you see how farfetched that is.

    It’s not really what’s being said.

    Leaving highly flammable objects around the house doesn’t, in itself, cause fires. But an inattentive smoker being careless with their ashes or falling asleep with a lit cigarette may ignite highly flammable objects. In a scenario where people habitually leave highly flammable objects around, and where people smoke, both behaviours are going to increase the likelihood of household fires. The question isn’t necessarily about whether a specific activity of behaviour always escalates on its own. It’s about combined behaviours increasing the likelihood of certain incidents.

    Rape culture refers to things we normalize that lead to more incendiary results. For example, normalizing behaviours predators use to groom targets. Normalizing aggressive behaviours with regard to sex. Normalizing staying silent when inappropriate behaviour happens. Normalizing tolerating uncomfortable attention. Normalizing placing blame on victims. etc.

    The issue isn’t that some one makes a rape joke and goes off rapity-raping. The issue is that we contribute to a culture where predatory behaviour is emboldened and targets of that behaviour are discouraged from speaking up, shutting it down, or they are not given proper support when they do either. This is a gross oversimplification, but the point is merely about the conditions being in place that make sexual assaults more likely to either occur or be successful.

    One of the things that’s changed in my lifetime is greater respect with regard to boundaries around being touched. If my niece doesn’t want to be hugged by me, that’s her business. When I was younger, it might be expected that as family, I can demand a hug. The issue isn’t that if I am able to give her a hug against her will I will then sexually assault her later on. It’s that we’re sending her the message that if she doesn’t want to be touched a certain way, no one gives a fuck. So if I or someone else entirely does begin to escalate, what does she do about it when from a young age we’ve conditioned the idea that what she wants doesn’t matter?

    And the issue here again is not that she is necessarily incapable of saying ‘no’ to some things not others—that she is incapable of recognizing a line that should not be crossed. It’s that we’re contributing to cultural norms that reduce her likelihood of doing either.

    #37489

    Unseen
    Participant

    @autumn

    I don’t disagree with you in general. My point was the statistics we are given are probably poppycock because (a) they are procedural disasters inflated artificially by a combination of fuzzy and/or overly broad definitions. and a set of motivations almost designed to inflate the number of reports because those who’ve experienced rape or sexual assault are eager to report the incident anonymously while those who haven’t experienced same have little motivation to spend time reporting when they have nothing to report. The result is Henny Penny advocates armed with trash numbers running around yelling that we have a rape pandemic and that all men are to be feared.

    In my view, we don’t have a rape culture problem so much as a male entitlement problem.

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