Sunday School

Sunday School 25th April 2021

This topic contains 126 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 3 days, 7 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 61 through 75 (of 127 total)
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  • #37491

    Autumn
    Participant

    @autumn I don’t disagree with you in general. My point was the statistics we are given are probably poppycock because (a) they are procedural disasters inflated artificially by a combination of fuzzy and/or overly broad definitions. and a set of motivations almost designed to inflate the number of reports because those who’ve experienced rape or sexual assault are eager to report the incident anonymously while those who haven’t experienced same have little motivation to spend time reporting when they have nothing to report.

    I suppose the unfortunate thing is methodology for studies is usually part of what’s behind the paywall. In most cases, should you be wondering about the numbers, the methodology should give at least some insight into your expressed concerns.

    The result is Henny Penny advocates armed with trash numbers running around yelling that we have a rape pandemic and that all men are to be feared. In my view, we don’t have a rape culture problem so much as a male entitlement problem.

    While I don’t spend much time talking about rape culture, many of the issues raised in that pyramid are things that have bothered me since childhood, regardless of numbers. I don’t know if male entitlement goes far enough to explain it overall, though I am sure it explains some of it. Some things aren’t really a matter of entitlement. Some things aren’t really about culpability even, but rather people ending up in dysfunctional and harmful situations where they are having sex they don’t want despite having technically consented.

    N.B. on that last one I am not talking about criminality, just harm that fits a very similar pattern.

    #37492

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    My point was the statistics we are given are probably poppycock because (a) they are procedural disasters inflated artificially by a combination of fuzzy and/or overly broad definitions. and a set of motivations almost designed to inflate the number of reports

    I think you’re straw-manning the diagram to fit your agenda that feminists, and their scientific integrity, can’t be trusted.

    #37494

    Davis
    Moderator

    I think you’re straw-manning the diagram to fit your agenda that feminists, and their scientific integrity, can’t be trusted.

    Indeed. It is curious the incredible energy some people put into trying to discredit or simply question the veracity of these statistics (and in very much particular sexual assault statistics). Even if a statistic such as 33% of women have been sexually assaulted was 50% hyperbole…a 17.5% rate is still outrageous. I mean…if 16.5% of men were randomly brutally physically assaulted in the street by strangers at least once in their life time (a life changing event) there would be absolute outrage, task forces set up to stop this at all costs and outrage that the police weren’t doing enough to stop it. Rape just isn’t taken as seriously, especially as a faceless crime (until it happens to someone you love). The more it is portrayed as an “ambiguous crime” the easier it is to all discount.

    Unseen, society is changing it’s attitudes towards consent. This can only be a good thing. Yes, it may be disappointing for some people who think the thrill of spontaneity and assertiveness will be dampened. I would say that would be a minuscule price to pay for a small number of people if it would seriously cut down the number of people whose spirits are destroyed (for the rest of their lives) because what one person thinks is consensual ambiguity was for most other people not remotely consent.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Davis.
    #37496

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Autumn,

    Your commitment to bizarre black and white thinking is noteworthy, though I suppose I have seen better. Don’t worry; I’m sure you’ll get there in time.

    Whether an innocent person lives as a free, sovereign human being in fact is a black-and-white, all-or-nothing issue.

    And if we are to regard rape and sexual assault as serious issues, then reason- and science-based criminal investigation and prosecution of them should equally be regarded as serious issues, as should smears and false accusations surrounding these issues.  There is no lost-and-found station where the falsely-accused can go to get their old lives back.  According to groups such as The Innocence Project, false accusations and slipshod investigations lead to false imprisonment far more often than is understood by the public at large:

    The Innocence Project

    Home

    And although the only thing common to all Atheists is lack of belief in a God or Gods, concern for due process should be a big deal for Atheists, given how little the larger Theistic, religion-based society trusts Atheists.

    #37497

    Autumn
    Participant

    Autumn,

    Your commitment to bizarre black and white thinking is noteworthy, though I suppose I have seen better. Don’t worry; I’m sure you’ll get there in time.

    Whether an innocent person lives as a free, sovereign human being in fact is a black-and-white, all-or-nothing issue. And if we are to regard rape and sexual assault as serious issues, then reason- and science-based criminal investigation and prosecution of them should equally be regarded as serious issues, as should smears and false accusations surrounding these issues.

    Unfortunately, due to the nature of the offence, sexual assaults are difficult to prosecute. Innocent people are convicted. Guilty people go free. If I had to guess, the latter is more common and more difficult to prevent than the former.

    And there are complicated reasons sexual assaults go unreported or why people only speak up well after the fact.

    Obviously the ideal would be that we could evaluate each and every case with the highest degree of forensic accuracy, and with ample reliable evidence at our disposal. And obviously anything that can reasonably be done to remove bias and human error from the process should be done. but we’re not going to escape the unfortunate murkiness of addressing sexual assaults through criminal proceedings. That’s not reality. It’s not CSI.

    #37498

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    I’m not sure where you get some of this, for example, your claim that people would more likely believe a woman sexually assaulted a man than a man sexually assaulted a woman.  Given the size and strength differential of most men and women, that doesn’t seem likely that the claim against the woman would be believed.

    Also, in many cases of male victims of sexual assault, it’s not that  their claims aren’t believed so much that nobody cares.

    Witness all the awful emasculating jokes made after the story of Lorena Bobbitt chopping off John Bobbitt’s penis. “Bobbitt” became a joke noun for a male gelding and  “Bobbitting” a man became a joke verb in the aftermath of that horrible story.

    A male doing the equivalent to a female’s genitalia wouldn’t be viewed as humorous, but as fodder for psychopathic horror films…or as a barbaric custom of Islamic tribal savages.

    In any event, no matter who is claimed to do what against whom, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, especially regarding acts against Life, Liberty, and Property.   On an Atheist Forum, of all places, this should be considered an understood.

    And, as an addendum, as much as I’ve railed against clergy regarding sexual abuse and Elon Musk living as a sponge off of taxpayers, I say they, too, if accused of crimes, have a right to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a fair trial before a judge and jury as well.  What would our society be if it were otherwise?

    #37500

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Autumn,

    As long as omniscience is an impossibility, both the falsely convicted and the unpunished guilty will always be among us, that is true.

    But minimizing the number of falsely convicted will re-focus time and resources of the law towards bringing the unpunished guilty to justice. Really, both causes are two aspects of the same fight for justice.

    #37501

    Unseen
    Participant

    My point was the statistics we are given are probably poppycock because (a) they are procedural disasters inflated artificially by a combination of fuzzy and/or overly broad definitions. and a set of motivations almost designed to inflate the number of reports

    I think you’re straw-manning the diagram to fit your agenda that feminists, and their scientific integrity, can’t be trusted.

    Pointing out some severe methodological issues isn’t “straw-manning.”

    #37502

    Unseen
    Participant

    I think you’re straw-manning the diagram to fit your agenda that feminists, and their scientific integrity, can’t be trusted.

    Indeed. It is curious the incredible energy some people put into trying to discredit or simply question the veracity of these statistics (and in very much particular sexual assault statistics). Even if a statistic such as 33% of women have been sexually assaulted was 50% hyperbole…a 17.5% rate is still outrageous. I mean…if 16.5% of men were randomly brutally physically assaulted in the street by strangers at least once in their life time (a life changing event) there would be absolute outrage, task forces set up to stop this at all costs and outrage that the police weren’t doing enough to stop it. Rape just isn’t taken as seriously, especially as a faceless crime (until it happens to someone you love). The more it is portrayed as an “ambiguous crime” the easier it is to all discount.

    I’m as concerned about rape as you are, Davis, and I agree that every rape is an outrage, but is the solution to be running around with suspicious statistics, so high that a lot of rational people simply won’t believe them?

    I suspect that a report on dog bites that was voluntary would generate similarly distorted statistics as people who were bit would want to be counted and those who weren’t had better things to do than fill out a form, and it would be distorted even more if the definition of “bite” was overly broad or just fuzzy. (Does a dog grabbing a pant leg count as a “bite”? and how about a possibly playful nip that doesn’t even break the skin?) If you don’t see a problem in this sort of data gathering that is fatal to the conclusions, you’re not thinking straight.

    Since I suspect you would agree that the above methodology would produce useless and inflated dog bite statistics but refuse to apply the same critical thinking to the gathering of rape statistics, YOU are the one operating under an unconscious bias when it comes to rape statistics.

    Unseen, society is changing it’s attitudes towards consent. This can only be a good thing. Yes, it may be disappointing for some people who think the thrill of spontaneity and assertiveness will be dampened. I would say that would be a minuscule price to pay for a small number of people if it would seriously cut down the number of people whose spirits are destroyed (for the rest of their lives) because what one person thinks is consensual ambiguity was for most other people not remotely consent.

    And yet, I bet a huge proportion of women still find the so-called “movie kiss” romantic and not rapey at all. Some women nowadays think a guy should ask permission to plant a kiss. Others find that a totally ridiculous idea that would totally break the mood.

    My point is, when you say “society is changing,” you are talking about some people, some segments, but not others. “Society” isn’t nearly as homogenous as you imply. Not only that, it never will be.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
    #37504

    Unseen
    Participant

    It’s amazing how many terrible things evaporate once science and logic are applied.

    #37505

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I see her channel is ‘AEI’ and do they appear to be a conservative, Republican influencer group to me? That would raise a flag. I really can’t stand this US right left bullshit, it is everywhere.

    #37506

    Davis
    Moderator

    But minimizing the number of falsely convicted will re-focus time and resources of the law towards bringing the unpunished guilty to justice. Really, both causes are two aspects of the same fight for justice.

    Then why Eco do we almost only hear outrage of unjustly accused rapists as opposed to unjustly accused everything else? Not only is the extraordinary concern for men falsely accused of rape seem insanely disproportionate to their ratio of unjustly accused victims of all crimes…the outrage of the very small number of falsely accused rape suspects often seems to be greater than the outrage to the 99% of rapists who get away with their crimes Scot free. If justice were truly of the greatest importance, then the focus would overwhelmingly be on making sure the 99% of rapists who don’t get convicted…actually get convicted. As opposed to getting far more outraged a tiny number of men are unjustly accused (and pretty much only over that particular crime).

    It’s clear how slow attitudes change.

    #37507

    Unseen
    Participant

    I see her channel is ‘AEI’ and do they appear to be a conservative, Republican influencer group to me? That would raise a flag. I really can’t stand this US right left bullshit, it is everywhere.

    The way out of your conundrum is to do what I do (and I’m very liberal/progressive generally): Ignore her politics. Instead, if you have an attack that’s fact-based and soundly argued, let’s hear it.

    I don’t discount views based on their source, which is basically a poisoning of the well. I’m fair-minded and ask myself “Who is making sense here vs. who is appealing to emotion?”

    There are conservatives and there are conservatives. There are the MAGA head Trumpist “conservatives” and there are the more grounded conservatives. I can guarantee you that she is more of a level-headed Lincoln Project conservative than a Qanon “Stop the Steal” conservative.

    #37508

    Davis
    Moderator

    Given the size and strength differential of most men and women, that doesn’t seem likely that the claim against the woman would be believed.

    There are all sorts of documented cases of women drugging men and raping them. If the facts are known…why wouldn’t they be believed? Statutory rape is also a widely reported phenomena (especially famous cases of female teachers having sex with very young boys). How could you never have heard of any of this?

    #37509

    Unseen
    Participant

    Then why Eco do we almost only hear outrage of unjustly accused rapists as opposed to unjustly accused everything else?

    I don’t know, Davis, could it be that to be accused of rape is basically to be accused of being, basically, a monster who, if convicted, will likely serve a long prison term followed by registration as a sex offender?

    Hmmmm

    I mean that vs. being accused of an art heist or of bicycle thievery.

    So, I think I’ve answered your question.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Unseen.
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