Sunday School

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I think I got some new chat up lines from that video. Thanks, I look forward to seeing what will come to pass.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

I can speak with authority when I say that oral tradition is how many things were passed down from generation to generation.

I agree completely. I am well acquainted with this having studied ancient Gaelic (Irish) traditions and language. I enjoy reading these old legends and appreciate how they are integrated into our modern lives. This is especially true in rural Ireland and along the west coast. There are proverbs in the Irish language that are older than the Bible and we are surrounded by ancient sites, like this one which is older than the pyramids in Egypt (where the Jews were never enslaved).

Sure every time you tell a story it changes a bit but it is a FACT that the creation story is one passed down in many cultures in many ways….

We have our own traditional creation stories too. But we recognise them for what they are. They are legends and part of our mythology. We can say the same of the mythologies of the Bushmen in Africa or the Aborigines of Australia. They are even other ex nihilo myths similar to Genesis from civilisations such as ancient Egypt.

We do not read them either factually or allegorically. We draw none of our understanding of the Creation of the Universe or of Humankind from them. To keep using them as a useful counterarguments to modern Cosmology or Evolutionary Theory would be nonsense, just as referring to Genesis as having any relevance to our current understanding of the world would be.

I do not understand why you are arguing that it is a FACT that the creation story is one passed down in many cultures in many ways. It is a 2500 old myth from a Hebrew civilisation.

If you read Genesis as just an allegory then it was written by man. It was not inspired by any god. It is just a brief record of one of many creation myths. If that is all it is then why are you even bothering to mention it?  If Christians don’t believe it is the word of their God then how do they think the Universe and everything it holds, including us, came from?

Are you going to argue that your God created it all but not as written in Genesis? Christians have killed atheists for centuries for suggesting such heresies.

[.Spectator]

@regthefronkeyfarmer

Most Christians I debate with tell me….

Stop right there…First of all most Christians you debate are JW’s or LDS’s that are like sheep going into the wolf’s den. So don’t act like your “debates” are on a level playing field. And you’re not debating them you’re debating ME. So it doesn’t really matter what “most Christians” say…

Why do you get to say you are right and they are wrong? Is it because you say so or just believe so, or do have a more grounded explanation for what you claim.

I don’t ever remember insisting anything on this forum about being “right” or trying to push my views on anyone. I have never said I am right. I am expressing what I think based on the information I have. You are doing the same thing. We are debating. So quit putting words in my mouth for me. I am not making any sort of claim with authority. I am telling you what I think. I suppose at the end of our debate you can decide for yourself if my explanation is grounded or not. That will be your own subjective opinion won’t it?

I am asking at what point in the Bible does it become factual and how do you know it is at that point?

Going back to my point about Genesis – no I do not believe that the story is factually true. I do know that evolution happened. But I think you really missed my entire point about oral tradition. I’ll have to think about how to explain that differently….As far as the entire Bible you can’t make a blanket statement and say that it’s either all true or not true at all. That sort of black and white thinking is ludicrous and I think you know that.

At what point are you in agreement with the claims of other Christians.

I really don’t give a shit about other Christians. What matters is my own relationship with God and that’s all.

Evolution is 100% factually true.

 

I agree.

 

You are claiming the Christian God is that force, that you can communicate with Him and that you will become an immortal. You are claiming you believe things that I say you cannot possibly know.

 

Name me one person in the world that does know. I’d love to meet him or her….

 

You cannot claim the God of the Bible created man and woman in their present forms if you accept Evolution. Even if it is allegorical it is completely inaccurate.

You are still taking it literally and missing my point completely.

 

 

 

I enjoy reading these old legends and appreciate how they are integrated into our modern lives.

 

Not you’re starting to speak my language…no pun intended 😉

 

 

This is especially true in rural Ireland and along the west coast. There are proverbs in the Irish language that are older than the Bible and we are surrounded by ancient sites, like this one which is older than the pyramids in Egypt (where the Jews were never enslaved).

 

That is so awesome I really should study that myself since I am MOSTLY Irish hahahaha!!!! Maybe Gaelic should be my next language to master lol.

 

To keep using them as a useful counterarguments to modern Cosmology or Evolutionary Theory would be nonsense, just as referring to Genesis as having any relevance to our current understanding of the world would be.

This is where our views diverge and I disagree. One of the best ways to teach is through story.

It was not inspired by any god. It is just a brief record of one of many creation myths. If that is all it is then why are you even bothering to mention it?

I’m just trying to stay on topic with the debate and I’m trying to answer your comment made on August 27, 2017 at 11:02 pm. And as far as it not being inspired by God I don’t agree. Honestly…

Are you going to argue that your God created it all but not as written in Genesis? Christians have killed atheists for centuries for suggesting such heresies.

 

People have been killed since the dawn of time for all kinds of stupid shit. Look at us. It’s 2017 and he have Orange Hitler in the white house! We don’t fucking learn!!!!!!

 

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Stop right there…First of all most Christians you debate are JW’s or LDS’s that are like sheep going into the wolf’s den.

Incorrect. I have debated several groups/cults/sects over the last 30 years. The majority would be mainstream Christian sects, mostly Catholics, some Protestants types and Evangelical Christians. The latter would consist mostly of “born again” and /or “speaking in tongues” types who content the Bible is the word of God from start to finish. I do debate with JW’s on a regular basis but they would be about 5% of the total number. I would probably debate more Muslims than I do Mormons.

I don’t ever remember insisting anything on this forum about being “right” or trying to push my views on anyone…

You are claiming that Genesis is allegorical. Most Christians I know say it is an accurate account of what their God did. It is only in recent years that some Christians have started claiming it to be a story. So by default you are claiming that they are wrong. Both camps cannot be correct. I am not putting words in your mouth.  I never said you said you were right. I asked you why you think you are right. If you think you are right it is implied that you consider those other Christians (that you don’t care about) to be wrong in their beliefs.

As far as the entire Bible you can’t make a blanket statement and say that it’s either all true or not true at all. That sort of black and white thinking is ludicrous and I think you know that.

Again, it is not my thinking. It is what the majority of Christians I have met with claim. I am asking you (again) that if the first chapter of the first book is allegorical then at what point does the Bible start to become factual. What chapter or verse do you consider not to be allegorical or a myth and why do you consider it to be reliably so?

I get the point about oral traditions.  I just don’t see its value here regarding the Genesis story. I asked you to explain how you know your God created everything if Genesis is not factual.

What matters is my own relationship with God and that’s all. Do you consider Jesus to be God?

Name me one person in the world that does know. I’d love to meet him or her….

That is not what I said. I said you are claiming to know that the God you have a personal relationship with is that force. All theists claim to know how the Universe came to be. All theists claim to know who created it. All theists claim that they are immortal. This is what they believe. Do you not believe this too?

This is where our views diverge and I disagree. One of the best ways to teach is through story.

Again you are arguing against a point I did not make. Why not teach that we are an evolved species. Why teach that a God did it on day 6 and created woman from a man’s rib. You could teach it in a history of religion class or Mythology class as to what people used to believe before science showed it to be a primitive belief from the dark ages.

Who would you be teaching this creation myth too? I don’t see why anyone need bother with it if it’s not true. What is to be gained by teaching it?

People have been killed since the dawn of time for all kinds of stupid shit. You did not answer the point which was – Are you going to argue that your God created everything but not as written in Genesis? If so where did you learn this.

Oíche mhaith mo chara.

[Dang MartinParticipant]

That’s one big problem about Christianity, is that everybody makes their own.

Doug Stanhope covers this, with humor [NSFW].

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by  Dang Martin. Reason: spelng ers

[_Robert_Participant]

I find it curious that the first thing ever written down by a Christian are Paul’s letters 25 years after historians agree Jesus died. Everything he writes is direct from god…e.g. he didn’t actually witness anything.

11For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel.
12For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:11-12)

Decades later Mark writes his gospel (Mat/Luke are copies) and all of a sudden we have virgin birth,place of birth, time of birth, parents names, childhood, John the Baptist, Jesus’ baptism, the devil’s temptation. moral teachings, miracles, apocalyptic views,transfiguration,Judas,Peter’s denial, arrest and trial,twelve disciples,the women at tomb,Son of Man,etc.

Somehow this is not revealed, but are told as accounts, none of this is known by Paul, the founder and dreamer of the faith. Jesus becomes real…just like the other cultural corruptions (e.g Egypt’s Osiris, Isis, and Horus story) of the messianic movement.

Before anyone studies the Bible ( Biblical Scholar) they should study how and why the myth arose first.

 

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@reg – “final judgement, Heaven and Hell”

– I think you’re right – there is no possible way to make a final judgement of whether someone is a good or bad person, and therefore, whether God would send them to Heaven or Hell.  Things just don’t work in this simplistic binary way.  But, God would know that, if God exists.

I think we can look at two facts or plausible possibilities.  1) life after death is a plausible reality for me.  2) people get guilty consciences.

If we put these together, then it means that after people die, and if their consciousness somehow lives on, then each person will be eating their liver over each and every little thing they did wrong in their lifetime – agonising over what went wrong, and breathing easy over what they did right – because now, that history is set in stone with no chance to go back and put things right.

That really makes sense, given how people are.  Heaven is an easy conscience, the very same conscience we would be forced to live with and examine for a very long time.  Hell is realising how godawful we were to people, and how we wasted our one shot at life on Earth.  That would really. suck.

Someone said, what about psychopaths: they disprove this theory because they don’t have a conscience, and therefore, there would be no final justice.  This assumes there must be final justice, which is not necessarily a given.  Also, psychopaths are always outliers who break the normal rules.

[.Spectator]

@regthefronkeyfarmer

Incorrect. I have debated several groups/cults/sects over the last 30 years. The majority would be mainstream Christian sects, mostly Catholics, some Protestants types and Evangelical Christians. The latter would consist mostly of “born again” and /or “speaking in tongues” types who content the Bible is the word of God from start to finish. I do debate with JW’s on a regular basis but they would be about 5% of the total number. I would probably debate more Muslims than I do Mormons.

Again it seems to me that you debate mostly the cult groups that take the Bible literally for its every word. You said so yourself when you said, “The majority would be mainstream Christian sects, mostly Catholics, some Protestants types and Evangelical Christians. The latter would consist mostly of “born again” and /or “speaking in tongues” types who content the Bible is the word of God from start to finish.”

So it’s whatever. It doesn’t honestly matter. But my point is you’ve said several times, “Most Christians I talk to say….xyz…” and I’m saying that doesn’t really matter. That would be like me trying to argue that “Most Atheists say xyz…” and I’m sure you would agree you can’t put “Most atheists” in a box any more than you can “Most Christians.”

You are claiming that Genesis is allegorical. Most Christians I know say it is an accurate account of what their God did.

There’s the “Most Christian’s card” again lmfao!

It is only in recent years that some Christians have started claiming it to be a story. So by default you are claiming that they are wrong. Both camps cannot be correct.

My point about Oral Tradition (which you missed) was to say that all people have had a creation story from the beginning of time. Of course both camps cannot be correct and I believe that those who take it LITERALLY (Including you) are wrong.

Again, it is not my thinking. It is what the majority of Christians I have met with claim.

There it is again!!! How many is that now? I think from now on for every time you play the “Most Christians card” you owe me a dollar 😉 lmfao

I am asking you (again) that if the first chapter of the first book is allegorical then at what point does the Bible start to become factual.

We are now officially arguing in circles because I pointed out the Bible is several books. So which book are we debating now? Are we still talking about Genesis? You’re treating the Bible like it’s one big book and it’s not.

What chapter or verse do you consider not to be allegorical or a myth and why do you consider it to be reliably so?

For example: The Psalms are not myths or allegorical. They’re poetry/song. Romans is not a myth or allegorical and neither is the book of Acts. The book of Isaiah and Jeremiah….. The Gospels are not a myth or allegorical…shall I go on?

I get the point about oral traditions.  I just don’t see its value here regarding the Genesis story. I asked you to explain how you know your God created everything if Genesis is not factual.

It’s not literally factual but it is meant to teach us something. This is how oral tradition works.

Do you consider Jesus to be God?

Yes

All theists claim to know how the Universe came to be. All theists claim to know who created it. All theists claim that they are immortal. This is what they believe.

You owe me another dollar, lol…I believe that there is a God. I believe that immortality is not a place like we’re up on the cloud with angel wings like we depict in movies. I believe that the way we live our lives determines our immortal state. I can give you two examples that I’ve seen. I’ll compare my grandmothers. My grandmother who passed away last year was a very Godly woman. She was a Catholic to the core of her being. When she passed away the people she touched remembered her and to this day the effect of the way she lived are still bringing good things to us. Contrast that with my biological grandmother. It is a really a tragic story. She is at this moment laying on her deathbed and likely doesn’t have that long to live. She has been a horrible person all of her life. An absolute bitch. The kind of woman who should have had all of her kids taken away from her for child abuse. A horrific person if you knew the things she did to her sons. When she passes everything about the way she lived her life will leave behind….almost like a curse. I am watching it play out right before my very eyes between my uncles and even for me…it is affecting ME. It is affecting my son….I don’t know what exactly happens when we die and no one does. But I do know that what we leave behind lives forever. And I have found reason to believe that there is some sort of spirit inside of us that reaps what we have done in our lives. I’m not thinking of all the words to explain myself well right now I’ll have to come back to this.

Why not teach that we are an evolved species. Why teach that a God did it on day 6 and created woman from a man’s rib. You could teach it in a history of religion class or Mythology class as to what people used to believe before science showed it to be a primitive belief from the dark ages.

I think we should teach all of the above…and more. Knowledge is power.

Who would you be teaching this creation myth too? I don’t see why anyone need bother with it if it’s not true. What is to be gained by teaching it?

I don’t really see it as something I’m going to drill into my son. I think there are many other things that are far more worth spending time on. I just addressed it because you first brought it up. Genesis being the root teaching of “original sin,” which I do think that our nature is to be…self-centered… and it’s all about me….That’s the take away of the story of Genesis is that we want to be our own God’s and it’s all turning the focus inward about what WE think we want instead of focusing outward and how to help and serve others.
Captaen oíche mhaith

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

Again it seems to me that you debate mostly the cult groups that take the Bible literally for its every word. You said so yourself when you said, “The majority would be mainstream Christian sects, mostly Catholics, some Protestants types and Evangelical Christians. The latter would consist mostly of “born again” and /or “speaking in tongues” types who content the Bible is the word of God from start to finish.”

No. Wrong.  I did not say they were biblical literalists. I was disputing your incorrect assertion that I only debated literalists.

“Most Christians” is not a card I am playing. For almost 2000 years Christians have taken the Bible as literal. That is “the majority of Christians have”. You are denying what Christianity professed and what Christians believed for centuries.

We are now officially arguing in circles because I pointed out the Bible is several books.

I specifically stated when I said that “I am asking you (again) that if the first chapter of the first book is allegorical then at what point does the Bible start to become factual”.

Read it again. It says “the first book”….i.e. the first of several in the Bible.

What matters is my own relationship with God and that’s all. Do you consider Jesus to be God?

You said “Yes”. So you have a personal relationship with Jesus little millions of other Christians. That means you are not religious?

Why did Jesus have to die if humans did not fall from grace?

Do you consider the story of Noah to be factual or allegorical or mythological?

Do you consider the Book of Exodus to be accurate or made up?

Do you consider the 4 Gospels to be accurate or do they contain several contradictions?

I believe that the way we live our lives determines our immortal state. Are you saved by Works or by Grace?

That’s the take away of the story of Genesis is that we want to be our own God’s and it’s all turning the focus inward about what WE think we want instead of focusing outward and how to help and serve others.

That is your interpretation only.

Do you consider all that stuff about Jacob and his family in the final chapters of Genesis to be allegorical or an accurate account of historical events?

[_Robert_Participant]

Belle, who used to write so eloquently now can’t seem to find words to express herself at all. Writing about a delusion isn’t easy, I guess. Grandma was a bitch, therefore god !!! In fact therefore my God, the one that is culturally accessible to me. That’s the truth, the light….

The same delusion that teaches that woman are subservient, slavery is fine if you do it right, gays will burn in hell, and a human sacrifice alleviates you of all your immoral deeds. Oh yeah..turn the other cheek, Father isn’t done just yet.

 

[.Spectator]

@regthefronkeyfarmer:

“Most Christians” is not a card I am playing. For almost 2000 years Christians have taken the Bible as literal. That is “the majority of Christians have”. You are denying what Christianity professed and what Christians believed for centuries.

No, what I’m trying to point out is that the key to a correct understanding of any part of the Bible is to ascertain the intention of the author of the portion or book under discussion. I have seen over the past 5 years over and over that many of the arguments I’ve seen on TA about the Bible fall under scrutiny for this very reason. Because you are trying to make an argument based on a literal interpretation of the Bible or taking it out of context. That is probably one of the biggest things that turned be off about atheism.

That means you are not religious?

I’m not dedicated to any one church or any one pastor. I believe that fellowship and coming together as a community is very important but it’s never ultimately about what any one person says. So honestly no I don’t consider myself religious. And I don’t think Jesus was either. He was AGAINST the hypocrites (Pharisees) which is one of the reasons they were against him.

Why did Jesus have to die if humans did not fall from grace?

My opinion is that we are separated from God. That’s really what Genesis was all about. While I do think it’s allegorical it’s also true in how I’ve seen the world. I saw the change in myself when I became an Atheist for example. And the person I became because of it. Anyway I’m not going to go into great detail about that on the forum but yeah. I think the idea that we are forgiven and then given another chance. Jesus didn’t come for the well he came for the sick and broken. The lowest of the low. That’s me. It’s the broken that need Jesus. You know how in AA you say, “Hi my name is _____and I’m an alcoholic…” well at Celebrate Recovery they say, “Hi my name is _____and struggle with….xyz….” everyone is different…..I always say, “Hi My name is Belle Rose and I struggle with everything, lol” because it’s true. Have I been able to muster up the will power and strength to overcome things? No. And damn it I’ve tried. The only thing that works is giving it up to God

Do you consider the story of Noah to be factual or allegorical or mythological?

I do think something happened where there was a flood. There’s lots of evidence to support it. I don’t think it covered the entire Earth though…just the area.

Do you consider the Book of Exodus to be accurate or made up?

Another example… Atheists look at it as black and white thinking which to me is stupid when you’re analyzing ancient texts. It was a myth and story but it came from a place of historical accuracy in that the story was not intended to be understood as history in the modern sense, but rather to demonstrate God’s actions in the history by recalling Israel’s bondage and salvation and the fulfillment of Israel’s covenant

Do you consider the 4 Gospels to be accurate or do they contain several contradictions?

Which part? Again…Just because you read it in one book hot off the printing press doesn’t mean it was that way originally. It was written in individual sections and pieced together. So honestly I can’t give you a blanket answer. That’s how Atheists think – in black and white about this stuff. I don’t. But for the most part I think they are accurate.

Are you saved by Works or by Grace?

By Grace. But I really think that when we talk about being “saved” it has more to do with how it changes us as people when we surrender to God instead of trying to control everything ourselves.

That is your interpretation only.

What’s your point?

Do you consider all that stuff about Jacob and his family in the final chapters of Genesis to be allegorical or an accurate account of historical events?

Both, I think it’s accurate but existed in oral tradition first. There’s some debate about it but I think it was written down on tablets during Joseph’s lifetime.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

No, what I’m trying to point out is that the key to a correct understanding of any part of the Bible is to ascertain the intention of the author of the portion or book under discussion.

I already asked you “on whose authority” are you deciding that. How do you ascertain the intent of the author? You have said you are not an authority on the Bible. When I said “This is your own interpretation” you asked “What’s your point?” Yet you are able to tell us how to correctly understand Biblical scripture. How have you come to this conclusion? Once again, who or what made you an authority on the interpretation of scripture.

Because you are trying to make an argument based on a literal interpretation of the Bible or taking it out of context.

I absolutely am not. I am saying that other Christians are taking it literally. Where have I taken it out of context? I am not arguing from the atheist viewpoint. I am arguing on behalf of other Christians that I speak with who contradict you entirely. They read it completely differently to you.

That is probably one of the biggest things that turned be off about atheism.

It has nothing to do with atheism. It has to do with Christianity. The biggest turn off for you should be Christians who say you are wrong and that you misrepresenting the Bible and not atheists who don’t believe what any Christian believes.

Why did Jesus have to die if humans did not fall from grace?

God died because we are separated from God? When did we fall from grace? In the Garden of Eden? No, as you consider that to be allegorical. As you accept the Theory of Evolution it must have been sometime in the last 200,000 years. It could not have been our African ancestors before they left Africa as they never heard of God or had any way of knowing their Evolver. It must have been sometimes after our species evolved language. I suspect, without been an authority on the subject that is was about 197,000 years later when the Hebrew language was flourishing, sometime around 2500 BCE?

I do think something happened where there was a flood. There’s lots of evidence to support it. I don’t think it covered the entire Earth though…just the area.

I think the Bible contradicts you on that one. It is such an extraordinary claim….but you know what I say about extraordinary claims.  Can you point out some of the “lots of evidence” to support it. That sounds like what Ken Ham says but he is Christian who is a Biblical literalist. I am fairly sure that your God said to Noah that he would make it rain for 40 days and forty nights until he had wiped from the Earth all the living creatures he had evolved created. But maybe it is just allegorical as it is from Genesis. Though you have admitted that some parts of Genesis are factual, like the story of Jacob so why not the story of Noah from the same book? I mean the Book of Matthew talks about Noah entering the Ark. I think we need to find a theologian.

Personally I don’t think there was a flood as there is no evidence to support it. By evidence I mean objective evidence, like geological evidence and not subjective evidence which is only personal opinion.

Atheists look at it as black and white thinking which to me is stupid when you’re analyzing ancient texts. It was a myth and story but it came from a place of historical accuracy in that the story was not intended to be understood as history in the modern sense.

It’s a myth based on an event of historical accuracy? Wow. Yes I do tend to consider statements of reported fact as black and white, especially when Jewish scholars, historians and archaeologists are adamant that they were never enslaved in Egypt. They consider it completely inaccurate.

…was not intended to be understood as history in the modern sense.

Now that is definitely how Ken Ham and his sidekick Bananaman, two vulgar Christian literalists speak. It does seem you modern interpretation of history is different to what Christian have understood it to be for centuries.

[StregaModerator]

It’s kind of ironic that a poster complains that Reg was clumping ‘most christians’ together, whilst simultaneously clumping all Atheists together in the response.

[Simon PayntonParticipant]

@bellerose – “My opinion is that we are separated from God. That’s really what Genesis was all about. While I do think it’s allegorical it’s also true in how I’ve seen the world.”

– that makes sense, in that it accords with the overall story arc: humans disobeyed God, got thrown out of paradise forever.

It also accords with the legitimate idea of “original sin”, although the way that idea has played out ever since is goofy, because:  the actual details of the story are bewildering and don’t really explain anything relevant to that story arc, apart from managing to pin the blame for The Fall onto women.

I also think it makes true and valuable sense in the real world, if we accept that “living a stupid life” leads to, at best, unhappiness.

[Reg the Fronkey FarmerModerator]

In Christian doctrine “Original sin” is the sin of disobedience that caused the fall of man from Gods’ grace. It happened when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. However it never happened because the story is allegorical, not factual, according to Belle Rose.

The account of the fall of man is not a metaphor for the fall of man. There never was an “Adam and Eve”. It never happened. It is a myth at best.

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