Sunday School

[TheEncogitationer]

Robert,

You’re assuming a lot of things either not found in evidence or contradictory.

For one, that Ho Chi Minh became a Communist because leaders at Versailles ignored calls for self-determination. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc Fallacy. Two, that foreign aid is necessary for a nation’s self-determination, an oxymoron if ever there was one. Three, that the colonizers at Versailles were isolationists, another oxymoron. Wilson, recall also, was the one who ran on the slogan “He Kept Us Out of War” who then got us into it.

You’re also equating taxpayer foreign aid from governents to other entities with voluntary trade between private individuals and companies.

Trade can and does and should occur without foreign aid. And the sorghum farmers we each cited earlier could also equally trade with ranchers abroad without USAID.

You’re also assuming that capitalists don’t live in the same environment as the rest of us and don’t invent technologies to counter-act pollution.

As for child labor, in the Western Industrial Revolution, that was going away before laws against it because technology was reducing the need for manual labor and increasing the need for mental labor from humans of any age. On top of this, more non-working children surviving birth made them a financial liability to a household. Both T.H. Ashton and Steven Pinker have pointed out the laws against child labor followed the economic norms, not vice-versa.

I got to give you credit though, you brought me out of the woodwork.

[Unseen]

Trump keeps losing in court, so I wonder how long it will take for him to simply ignore court orders and go full dictator.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

…and the idea for a sovereign wealth fund is not a very good one…

[_Robert_]

TheEncogitationer wrote:

Robert, You’re assuming a lot of things either not found in evidence or contradictory. For one, that Ho Chi Minh became a Communist because leaders at Versailles ignored calls for self-determination. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc Fallacy. Two, that foreign aid is necessary for a nation’s self-determination, an oxymoron if ever there was one. Three, that the colonizers at Versailles were isolationists, another oxymoron. Wilson, recall also, was the one who ran on the slogan “He Kept Us Out of War” who then got us into it. You’re also equating taxpayer foreign aid from governents to other entities with voluntary trade between private individuals and companies. Trade can and does and should occur without foreign aid. And the sorghum farmers we each cited earlier could also equally trade with ranchers abroad without USAID. You’re also assuming that capitalists don’t live in the same environment as the rest of us and don’t invent technologies to counter-act pollution. As for child labor, in the Western Industrial Revolution, that was going away before laws against it because technology was reducing the need for manual labor and increasing the need for mental labor from humans of any age. On top of this, more non-working children surviving birth made them a financial liability to a household. Both T.H. Ashton and Steven Pinker have pointed out the laws against child labor followed the economic norms, not vice-versa. I got to give you credit though, you brought me out of the woodwork.

Foreign aid is a tool and can be one part of an entire range of transactions between countries. It’s the shallow, short term “you’re giving our tax dollars away” thinking versus looking at long term benefits.  Capitalism and democracy require a background climate to thrive. Poverty is a petri dish for dictators and thugs. Foreign aid can create a positive climate. Prevention is always cheaper than the cure. The cure being a giant military and the wars we fight.

Here is the telegram from Minh to Truman. It was ignored. In the American whitewashing of history, we are always right, of course. If the US had put in 5% of the effort that would be expended in the war, at that crucial time…probably be no war at all. Just like what we did in Europe, Japan and South Korea. All huge allies and a big part of the economic wealth we gained. Creating a background for peace a prosperity.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305263

Well, we have the experiment going on right now. Pulling aid, implement tariffs, going isolationist. Let’s see how all this works out for us and the rest of the world. Starvations and communicable diseases running rampant are awesome for democracies, don’t you think? I see Tesla car sales are down 40% in Germany and France. Maybe they lost that lovin feelin. Where is that tiny violin.

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

FYI – https://www.notus.org/

[jakelafort]

I think the contemporary political rhetoric was roughly we can fight them over there or over here. And then there was the domino theory. Consistent with US foreign policy we chose to fight em there and never seemed to care if it was some ruthless dictator we supported. Anything to oppose communism. But maybe a transitional phase involving communism is the right political system under certain circumstances. And if our government and political system is working then why would we fear communism?

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

I think people in Europe are not so much annoyed with Trump as they are with America in general. They are having difficulty in understanding why so many people voted for him when it is blatantly obvious that he has no presidential qualities. They are laughing about it but it is gallows humor. But I also think most of them “have enough already” but will open their fingers and take a peep every so often.

Hopefully there won’t be a government shutdown on March 14th (even a partial one). They will need help from the Dems to get the continuing resolution renewed. Trump’s implementation of a freeze on federal spending, which is aimed at controlling government expenditures has led to confusion and legal challenges and will further complicate budget negotiations.

Some analysts believe that Musk’s political role could potentially benefit Tesla by reducing regulatory hurdles, particularly in areas like autonomous driving. But this could also lead to road deaths too.

At least Trump is rooting out anti-Christian bias in his Christian Nationalist government.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Reg the Fronkey Farmer.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jakelafort,

I think the contemporary political rhetoric was roughly we can fight them over there or over here. And then there was the domino theory. Consistent with US foreign policy we chose to fight em there and never seemed to care if it was some ruthless dictator we supported.

By repealing foreign aid, we don’t have to fight here or there. Without support from the West, Communism would have collapsed from it’s own dead weight and still would where its still practiced. And this way doesn’t require supporting non-Communist dictators either.

Anything to oppose communism. But maybe a transitional phase involving communism is the right political system under certain circumstances. And if our government and political system is working then why would we fear communism?

Tell me you slept through the Twentieth Century and never read Marx without saying that you slept through the Twentieth Century and never read Marx.

Mankind has been there, done that, and got the anerexic-size Gulag uniform to show for it. The “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” never “withered away” on it’s own, wherever and whenever implimented. It needed brute force to stay together and support from the West to keep from falling apart.

The miniscule number of Israelis who willfully live as kibbutzim is just one proof of what a failure Communism is.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum

[Reg the Fronkey Farmer]

Who needs the stupid FDA anyway! I am going to chill out tomorrow with a lucky dip of compound meds from “Hims and Hers”.

[jakelafort]

Enco i made it through about half of Das Kapital. Not fun reading!

I am not in any way endorsing communism. Only saying that there are phases in which fledgling nations in exigent circumstances are or may be better served by a dalliance with capitalism than say a fucking ruthless dictator. Imposing from without and having no regard for the people who live there is cold, ice cold. And yes communism is always going to go to shit because of human nature. And economic issues.

I see the similarity between communism and kibbutzim. But there is one very very major distinction. It is voluntary, not imposed by the state. Leave whenever ya want. No mafia or Islamic kill your ass if you run away naked and afraid. Also tight social groups unlike the social order in communist nations. Probably a lot of other shit in contradistinction to communism. I have a cousin who spent a year at one of dem dere kibbutzim and thought it a great experience. I wonder if kibbutzim and kibbitz have the same root…

AI says the following about Kbutz.

Kibbutzim are communal villages in Israel where people live and work together in a non-competitive environment. The word “kibbutz” is Hebrew for “gathering”.
History:
The first kibbutz, Degania, was established in 1910.
Kibbutzim were founded by Jewish immigrants who rejected capitalism and wanted to create a socialist society.
Kibbutzim were a key part of Israel’s early economic development and identity.
Characteristics:
Kibbutzim are run democratically.
Members share all property, labor, and profits.
Members rotate routine jobs, such as dining room duties.
Kibbutzim are based on the ideals of socialism and Zionism.
Economic activity:
Kibbutzim were originally based on agriculture, but have since expanded into manufacturing and services.
Kibbutzim have pooled resources to create regional enterprises, such as cotton gins and poultry-packing plants.
Kibbutzim have also expanded into tourism, with recreational facilities like swimming pools, museums, and water parks.
Social impact:
Kibbutzim were a major influence on Israeli society, helping to make gender equality a central part of the country.
Kibbutzim children grew up with a strong focus on education, culture, and political activism.
What is a kibbutz? The roots of Israel’s communal villages where violence raged : NPR
Oct 12, 2023

The word itself means “gathering” in Hebrew. Kibbutzim are a communal living situation unique to Israel. There are about 270 kibbutzim dotted across Israel. At their heart, kibbutzim are small towns — typically with somewhere between 100 and 1,000 residents — historically centered around collective farms.

[Unseen]

If The Trumpster was bluffing with his 10% additional tariff on Chinese goods, General Secretary Xi is not.

[jakelafort]

The following article is short and worth noting. Quoting from article, on Good Morning Britain “During a segment on the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, attended by King Charles, presenter Ranvir Singh stated: “Six million people were killed in concentration camps during the Second World War, as well as millions of others because they were Polish, disabled, gay, or belonged to another ethnic group.” There was an apology. It was a mistake. You believe that i have good title on the Brooklyn Bridge and you can have it for a song. And i heard on CNN the moderator refer to the terrorists who are being exchanged for the hostages as DISPLACED PALESTINIANS! Also i read how the BBC referred to the Israeli hostages as Israeli prisoners. Lefty mother fuckers. Racist mother fuckers. Now tell me what you really think Jake. I knew all of the lefty narratives about Israel were based on racism long before october 7 attack by Hamas. I prefer the Nazis to the Progressives in terms of being honest about their agenda.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-841031

[_Robert_]

I’ll never understand the christian logic of hating Jews because they turned hay-zeus over for execution. Let’s set asides the lack of evidence of any of this, beyond accounts written in Koine Greek by cultists 40 years later. Did they not require a human sacrifice to be “saved”? They should be thanking the Jews for delivering god to himself to save them from him. The entire christian myth and zeitgeist is logically idiotic.

The real reason Jews are probably hated because they stick with their myths as cultural artifacts and consider it purely allegorical.

I’ll never understand the logic of Black Americans/Caribbeans/South Americans/Native Americans adopting the religion of their former murderers and slave owners either. Maybe we can be as murderous as they were? Go figure.

[jakelafort]

“I’ll never understand the christian logic of hating Jews because they turned hay-zeus over for execution. Let’s set asides the lack of evidence of any of this, beyond accounts written in Koine Greek by cultists 40 years later. Did they not require a human sacrifice to be “saved”? They should be thanking the Jews for delivering god to himself to save them from him. The entire christian myth and zeitgeist is logically idiotic.”

That is a thought that never occurred to me. Good take Robert.

[TheEncogitationer]

Jakedelafort,

I am not in any way endorsing communism. Only saying that there are phases in which fledgling nations in exigent circumstances are or may be better served by a dalliance with capitalism than say a fucking ruthless dictator. Imposing from without and having no regard for the people who live there is cold, ice cold. And yes communism is always going to go to shit because of human nature. And economic issues.

Wait a minute, that’s not what you said earlier:

Anything to oppose communism. But maybe a transitional phase involving communism is the right political system under certain circumstances. And if our government and political system is working then why would we fear communism?

So which is it? Communism is neat and nessecary for some peoples or not?

You are right that the kibbutzim are voluntary and didn’t have Gulags and firing squads, but for all their proported benefits, only 9 percent tops of Israelis went for the life the Kibbutzim in the Seventies according to Robert Nozick’s famous essay:

Who Would Chose Socialism?
The Israeli Kibbutzim provide the acid test for Voluntary Socialism.
Robert Nozick | From the May 1978 issue
https://reason.com/1978/05/01/who-would-chose-socialism/

I’m sure it’s even less in an age when Israelis can have cuisine and products ordered online and sent from all over the world and can watch Ben-Hur from hundreds of streaming services without some Gladys Kravitz on State Television moral panicking them about color films.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by TheEncogitationer. Reason: Spelling

[Author]

Posts