Sunday School

Sunday School May 12th 2019

This topic contains 37 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Reg the Fronkey Farmer 2 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 38 total)
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  • #26225

    _Robert_
    Participant

    Well, from what I have studied, one can’t adhere to Islam in all it’s glory and integrate into a capitalist democracy or even a socialist democracy; ala Malmo Sweden, the Euro city of the future. Because of the ultra leftist bent, if a Swede questions the status quo they are immediately labeled a fascist-racist and are out of the union and jobless.

    Mutual exclusive values is a reality here. Fast forward a few decades when Europe is awash in Saudi-funded institutions, Wahabi/sharia law permeates the courts and minuets (and those ugly fucking hijabs) dot the landscape….maybe the US will let some Europeans immigrate legally into our horrid country. Unless the US follows Europe down that deathly spiral. Then, why would you bother.

    We know Christians can be governed by secular powers. We have a history of that. Can Muslims? I am an atheist first and a liberal second. If liberalism facilitates Islam in our society and we can’t rock or dance or drink ourselves silly then call me a conservative and liberal can go fuck off.

     

    #26226

    Davis
    Participant

    Because of the ultra leftist bent, if a Swede questions the status quo they are immediately labeled a fascist-racist and are out of the union and jobless.

    There is a major difference between “respecting the status quo” and someone who turns a work office into an unpleasant toxic enviroment introducing sex, religion, politics, race etc. into the workplace usually in an unpleasant, offensive or disruptive manner. Yes, there are extreme examples of being being chastised for relatively harmless cases, but that is no different than people being disciplined for no end of silly reasons or for example someone in an Alabama Christian office being fired for telling a harmless dirty joke. That has nothing to do with extremism or left vs. right. Don’t make the office space toxic and you won’t get fired. Works the same everywhere.

    Fast forward a few decades when Europe is awash in Saudi-funded institutions, Wahabi/sharia law permeates the courts and minuets (and those ugly fucking hijabs) dot the landscape….maybe the US will let some Europeans immigrate legally into our horrid country.

    Where on Earth do Americans get this idea that muslims are taking over Europe? It is flabberghasting to hear this all the time and I almost exclusively hear this from Americans. Yes, a few countries have a notable muslim population like Belgium and France. Most have few like Greece and Ireland and others have virtually none, like Spain or Malta. And the countries which have more sizeable muslim populations have introduced laws which actively discourage sharia, including hijab bans, bans of religious symbols etc. Countries with large muslim populations have reformed their immigration policies as well. I mean, if most countries in Europe have a very tiny muslim population, and that population hasn’t been increased for decades and there are no signs that immigration starting up there, then how the hell can muslims take over? That is insane. I might as well Claim that the Chinese are taking over the US because they have a large presence in California and New York and china towns around the country you can visibly see some cultural clashing in the streets because of it. It doesn’t make sense.

    Unless the US follows Europe down that deathly spiral. Then, why would you bother.

    Death spiral? I just hear conspiratorial dread and horror that I don’t recognize for a second. Europe is doing well. A whole lot better, safer and well off than the US is politically, socially and economically. Where are you getting this stuff? We might as well claim Canada and Denmark are the least desired countries to live in because some mundane political scandal happened and that the Sahara desert is a cold frozen place because it gets chilly on January nights.

    We know Christians can be governed by secular powers. We have a history of that.

    This has nothing to do with religion mixing with politics but secularism forcing itself into the political sphere. Christianity doesn’t go…okay…you can take political power from us and rule yourselves. They let go of power kicking and screaming and they still inserted their tentacles deep into the state until recently and even then the tentacles are still there, especially in the Southern US, Poland and Russia. There is nothing about Christianity that made secularism more possible. It was a product of social and political change within a cultural sphere and secularism succeed for many reasons. And at the same time numerous Muslim countries have also done the same like Albania, Turkey and more recently Bosnia and Azerbaijan. Whatever problems those countries have with the tentacles of Islam trying to interfere in national law and politics, there is virtually no difference to what is happening in Georgia and Alabama today.

    and liberal can go fuck off.

    Is this where discourse has ended up?

    #26227

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I think that Sweden is a special case regarding migration and integration.  Overnight, a previously racially and cultually homogeneous population became 1 in 4 middle-Eastern migrants.  This hasn’t happened in the UK, where we have had waves of migration from the Caribbean and South Asia going on since the 1950s, and the result is a lot more happy.

    So in Sweden, feelings are running very high on both sides.  They probably haven’t dealt with it very well: free speech has been stifled, and now there’s a backlash.  What is sthe story from Germany, for example?  It’s a different situation.

    In the UK, muslims do submit to the laws of the land just like everyone else.  We’re still allowed to rave and drink.

    #26228

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    justice can be very inhumane

    Justice contains the concept of retribution or retributive justice.  This is where things can get unkind and moral anger can be invoked, which people often find enjoyable.  Hence, Isis enjoy throwing gay people off buildings.

    #26229

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I have read many articles like this:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-12-01/sweden-s-anti-immigration-wave-is-based-on-a-failure-to-integrate

    I get my news from the bbc. I don’t trust ABC, CNN or Fox. The denial is dripping off Swedes like sweat from a Sumo wrestler in this bbc report on Sweden. Just the way they talk makes me think they are scared to tell the truth, even the cop. The “happy refugee” is all about Allah. Notice he hasn’t learned Swedish at all.  Allah loves Sweden, he says.

    Here is a video released a few weeks ago. Could it be all wrong? Is this all just bullshit?

     

    #26230

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I gotta stop watching right wing you tube videos since I retired, LOL. You watch one and your side bar loads up on them and they are addictive as hell. The left and the right both have valid points but I think I am taking a vacations from politics for a while, that shit will drive you crazy.

    I’ll go back to concentrating on my atheistic religion and the associated satanic worship. I am mad at god and let’s face it… random molecules that came from nothing banged together and created monkeys and then a lady monkey had a human baby.

    #26231

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I agree, that stuff is going to send a person crazy.  I don’t listen to anyone who is frothing at the mouth.

    On the other hand, I think it’s good to actually engage with a person with a different point of view – we usually end up learning something.

    #26232

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    I find it more illuminating to study the people peddling this kind of extremism.  It turns out that most of them are classic narcissists who just love causing trouble, provoking people, and being the centre of attention.

    #26233

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I agree, that stuff is going to send a person crazy. I don’t listen to anyone who is frothing at the mouth. On the other hand, I think it’s good to actually engage with a person with a different point of view – we usually end up learning something.

    You are right Simon. My mother was a hippie basically and she raised me. My father however was a soldier and he gave up everything he had including his family while fighting in Asia. He was wounded and addicted to morphine and later methadone.

    A rock band that I am a member just played an event where they bring a “Vietnam Wall” around; it has a list of names of all those who gave their lives. Basically the event honors the veterans who now very old. Most had no choice. When I see young , very privileged Americans  touting communism I really don’t know how to react. I feel like a ping pong ball.

    The one thing I know that IS correct->non belief in gods and religions and maybe a bit of anti-theism is the right thing. Other than that I guess I just don’t know any more.

    #26234

    Davis
    Participant

    I would actually recommend the CBC news over BBC. CBC has actual commentary and fact checking and isn’t in the slightest afraid to be critical of international or American topics. A few reporters lived in Washington for dozens of years.

    cbc.ca/news

    Yes. Sweden is going through major cultural transitions. Immigrants cannot get citizenship until they learn Swedish and the classes are free. If they want to stay…they will learn it. If people are weary of overgeneralising about Muslims and immigrants I wouldn’t be surprised because there is no shortage of people who do so in a very vile and ugly way. It’s one thing to say we have some problems to solve with immigration, it’s another to say these Muslims have made our streets dangerous. It’s sort of like not saying in the U.S. when will those black gangsters learn? Would you openly say that on TV? Europeans, in general, don’t usually blurt out hyperhemotional nonsense during street interviews and are a little more careful how they say things (though in the UK there are certainly exceptions).

    As for YouTube videos and politics, it’s generally a bad match. Good quality news magazines offer more in-depth understanding and commentary. Takes longer to read but you actually learn something. For example The Atlantic or perhaps a more centrist news magazine. Same with good documentaries.

    I’m not saying there aren’t problems with Muslim immigration in a few places in Europe. The suburbs of Paris is a very good example. But it isn’t Armageddon and there is no threat of Islamification in the EU

    #26235

    _Robert_
    Participant

    But it isn’t Armageddon and there is no threat of Islamification in the EU

    That’s good to know Davis. One of my best friend is an Iranian engineer who immigrated during the coup and he just goes on and on about the evils of Islam. It’s funny how the random things that occur in your life…such as the people that cross your path.. and that forms your viewpoint. Another great friend of mine from Catholic high school was gay. I was the only one that actively knew. When other guys would trash gays in his presence (every day, basically) I would defend or at a minimum change the subject. I do not think many get their life view from academia. It’s typically from the people you meet and the experiences you have. It’s probably not the best way to go about it. And now we throw in social media into the fray- just a whole other can of worms.

    #26236

    My main sources of “TV news”  are BBC Newsnight ,  Channel 4 News (Britain), CBC, NPR, Aljazeera, the Irish Times and NYT online editions. OK, enough already…

    #26237

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Aljazeera do some excellent documentaries.

    #26238

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Does religion really cause violence?

    This is an interesting article.  Apparently, the evidence either way is sketchy at best, and so far points to simple in-group bias and out-group hatred.

    I can think of one clear example that doesn’t fit this hypothesis: witch-burning.  Another: gay-bashing.  Another: violent exorcisms.  Another: evil nuns in mother and baby homes.

    But much of the time, religion is actively working to reduce violence.  It’s not surprising if it’s found to be both a force for good and for the worst sides of human nature.

    #26239

    …or as Jon Stewart once said…“religion gives hope to people in a world torn apart by religion”.

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