Sunday School

Sunday School September 10th 2023

This topic contains 77 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 11 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #50108

    Sen. Mike Lee and Congress Ogress Empty Greene got direct reports from their imaginary god that the Burning Man floods were divine retribution. Imagine not knowing that your own father was the ‘Anointed and Appointed One’ until a prophet came along!

    The cult of Trump and the right’s Project 2025 that wants to make faith the government’s job.

    Blasphemy law is no answer to bigotry in the wake of Denmark’s Qur’an burnings.

    A growing number of chaplains are not religious.

    Black churches in Florida buck DeSantis: ‘Our churches will teach our own history.’

    India: Sectarian violence between Hindus and Muslims on the rise.

    Edinburgh Council ends religious reps’ voting powers.

    Creationists battle over the existence of dinosaurs.

    White evangelicals seem to have made America’s gun culture integral to their faith, unlike Christians in the rest of the world.

    World of Woo: How to spot a fake, fraudulent or scam website.

    Environment: It’s really fucking hot and it really is our fault.

    Human ancestors nearly went extinct 900,000 years ago while scientists find the last remnants of the human genome that were missing in the Y chromosome.

    Is space curved or flat?

    Kant’s Categorical Imperative.

    How do I know I’m not the only Conscious Being in the Universe?

    Long Reads:  The D&D players of Death Row.  The lies in your grocery store. What if AI treats humans the way we treat animals? The Supreme Court is bypassing Science—We can’t ignore it. When did Faith first surmise the horses’ heads were pointed toward eternity?

    Sunday Book Club:  Nobody’s Fool.

    Some photographs taken last week.

    While you are waiting for the kettle to boil……

    Coffee Break video: Richard Dawkins and Matt Dillahunty in conversation. Has New Atheism Failed? with Alister McGrath & Alex O’Connor. How tragedy brought US evangelicals to Welsh schools. A day in the life of the Oracle of Delphi.

     

    #50110

    Have a great week!!

    #50111

    Strega
    Moderator

    Thanks, Reg 🙂

    #50114


    Participant

    Blasphemy law is no answer to bigotry in the wake of Denmark’s Qur’an burnings.

    From the article:

    All book burnings are, to my mind, senseless, whether it be Christian pastors torching LGBTQ+ books or trans activists torching copies of Harry Potter. They are at best crude attempts to make a political point. Nor should one forget the long history of state-enforced book burnings aimed at buttressing tyrannical rule and often targeting vulnerable social groups.

    Can’t really agree with this line. The world in which you might hope to eliminate books from local circulation by burning them is gone. While some instances of book burning may symbolically speak to an urge to wipe certain viewpoints out of existence, it would be reductive. Generally, the symbolic gestures are performed alongside commentary. And it can be a poignant gesture.

    I understand authors don’t want to appear biased or they don’t want to lose their audience so they try to walk the ‘both sides’ tightrope, but it quickly becomes equivocal. The problem with Christian pastors burning 2SLGBTQ+ books is less in the book burning and more in the fact that there are well-funded conservative Christian lobby groups currently making moves. But the gesture of burning the book is far from senseless. If anything, I kind of appreciate them being so painfully fucking overt.

    Nevertheless, the burning of symbolic objects, whether books or flags, has long been part of the tradition of protest, and in an age when the right to protest is continually curtailed – even within liberal democracies – we should not lightly dispense with it.

    I am realigned with the article author here. One ought not burn the Quran because it is inflammatory in more ways than one. It’s like the kid in the back of the car who tries to start a fight with their sibling by hovering a finger an inch away from them while chanting, “Not touching you,” as it that technicality makes the act less aggressive and provocative. Whether physical contact is made or not, I suspect many parents don’t put up with this for very long before telling their kids to knock it off.

    Burning the Quran does not justify unlawful retaliation, but it is poking the bear. These are the situations that are bound to create stress not just for the extremists, but for the everyday folk that know antagonism when they see it. The point where the law can intervene in the situation will likely be reactive, not proactive if law enforcement have to wait for a law to be broken to act. I can see why the temptation, then, is to shift the law so law enforcement can act earlier in the escalation.

    But that doesn’t mean it’s the right answer.

    The Iranian-born Danish artist Firoozeh Bazrafkan, a vocal opponent of Iran’s theocratic regime, has shredded the Qur’an as part of her performance art. Another Iranian-born artist, Sooreh Hera, who lives in the Netherlands, had her photographs of two gay Iranian exiles wearing masks of the prophet Muhammad and his son-in-law, Ali, censored by the Gemeentemuseum in the Hague because, in the words of the museum director, “certain people in our society might perceive it as offensive”.

    And this represents a big part of the reason why. Islamophobia is a thing. In Canada, we have people who ascribe to irrational fears that Muslims are taking over and that we’ll be a Sharia state any day now despite coherent evidence to support the claim. We have violence and hate targeting places of worship in some cases indiscriminately. We have people who are hellbent on making themselves the victims of Muslims in Canada when they really aren’t.

    Yet there are also legitimate criticisms of Islam and of various Islamic states. While various laws in various jurisdictions have weighed in on the line between what constitutes artistic expression and what does not, it’s really not ideal.

    #50115

    Unseen
    Participant

    Re: book burning…

    Let’s be clear about what the real problem is and where it lies.

    All book burning does is create interest in the books being burned. It’s the same with any attempt to suppress books by taking copies out of existence. The example of the attempts in the 50’s  and 60’s to ban pornographic books like Burroughs’ Naked Lunch or Miller’s Tropic of Cancer, and later on photographic and filmic porn comes to mind.

    It just made people curious. Deep Throat wouldn’t have been an art house phenomenon had nobody bothered to suppress it. The problem with banning copies of anything, you see, lies is in the word “copy.” There can always be more copies made.

    Of more concern is prior suppression or confiscation of the source material.

    Today, Youtube, Facebook, the site formerly known as Twitter, and others decide what we are allowed to see, using the excuse of preventing the propagation of bad, wrong, or harmful ideas, or even ideas that contradict official government messaging. As they do so, they hide behind the veil of private ownership to exempt them from protecting our free speech. This, even when they are acting, in a de facto way, as an extrajudicial arm of the government or one of its agencies.

    That should be far more worrisome than the mere burning of books, for when the government has lost its trust in the people, the people will lose their trust in the government. Just look around you.

    #50116

    And this represents a big part of the reason why. Islamophobia is a thing. In Canada, we have people who ascribe to irrational fears that Muslims are taking over and that we’ll be a Sharia state any day now despite coherent evidence to support the claim. We have violence and hate targeting places of worship in some cases indiscriminately. We have people who are hellbent on making themselves the victims of Muslims in Canada when they really aren’t.

    I really dislike the term ‘Islamophobia’. I think Islam is a bad idea and of no practical benefit to anyone. I consider Christianity in a similar manner. I have had no problems with any Muslim that I have met. When I debate religion with any Muslim or Christian apologetic, I use the same arguments because their faiths are just versions of the same stale idea.  I have no ‘phobia’ about any idea. A person has Rights but their ideas do not. I attack the idea, not the person. But because the theists cannot defend their ideas, they demand special privileges, such as blasphemy laws in order to shut down debate or criticism.

    I agree it is the irrational fears about Muslims taking over and these fears are stoked by right wing Christians. It is all driven by religion. But Islam is currently worse than Christianity. Canada has taken in many Muslims who have been persecuted by other Muslims. I have helped get some across borders in Europe and they have ended up in Quebec.

    I was very proud of Canada for taking in the family of Raif Badawi who was jailed in Saudi for 10 years and only released last year. He still cannot leave Saudi to be with his family. Blasphemy is victimless but religious inspired hatred seldom is. BTW I have the words ‘I am Raif Badawi’ tattooed on my right elbow, in Arabic.

    #50117

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg and Fellow Unbelievers,

    The best thing anyone protesting Al-Qu’ran or The Holy Bible or any other religious text can do is get on a PA or a megaphone and actually read the text of it for all to hear.

    The audience will either hear and understand what absurd and bloodthirsty texts these are and reconsider or they’l turn away from sheer boredom and better things for their mindshare . Either way, the power of these texts is diminished.

    #50118


    Participant

    I really dislike the term ‘Islamophobia’. I think Islam is a bad idea and of no practical benefit to anyone. I consider Christianity in a similar manner.

    Whether you like the term or not, it encapsulates elements of irrational bigotry and unjustified moral panic toward the mere existence of Muslims in certain populations. Rational criticism of any religion isn’t well served by irrational bigotry, plain and simple. If the worst thing that happens to me should someone conflate the former with the latter is that someone calls me an Islamophobe, so be it. Either I can defend my stance or I should give it further consideration (or both). While I am sure there are limited cases where people have had their tenure with a company/ school/ organization challenged over cries of Islamophobia, this doesn’t negate that it is an actual thing.

    While you’ve pointed out examples where Canada has been good, we also have examples that have been straight fucked. With 39 million people distributed across varying cultural landscapes, Canada is never going to be just one thing or the other in matters such as these. I can’t speak so much to Denmark. I mean, no culture is a monolith, but I’m far from an expert on their cultural norms. I suspect Quran burning is not a typical family fun pastime, however.

    #50119

    Davis
    Moderator

    I have a problem with people who call someone who criticises ideas from Islam or Judaism or policies within Arab countries or Israel as “Islamophobic” or “Anti-Semitic”. We should be able to criticise ideas, especially those which assault the dignity of others or encroach on the basic rights of people.

    However I don’t believe that this means malicious Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism is not very problematic or that the term should be dispensed with. Attacks on Muslims and Jewish people for simply being practicing Muslims or Jews, as well as discrimination against them, is very well documented and still a daily occurrence.

    I would be happy to see religion disappear, but I would be very unhappy to see the ability to choose and express your ideas (even really bad ones), as long as they do not conflict with laws and rights, disappear.

    Moral panic about religious people is a serious problem, as Autumn mentioned. The claim that Europe will become a Sharia state is illogical and absurd and yet I have heard intelligent people (who claim not to be bigoted) say these things.

    Radicalism should be fought more aggressively, and people should not be labelled Islamophobias or Anti-Semites for criticising doctrine, practices and ideas. But malicious and dangerous Islamophobia and Anti-Semitism exist and should be called out. We should not pretend it is a small and insignificant problem and we should just as equally fight real Islamophobia and Anti-semitism as we protect people from being unfairly called Islamophobes and Anti-Semites.

    #50120

    Davis
    Moderator

    I am not against people having the right to burn books, flags or symbols. But it is obnoxious. If you don’t like the book or flag, throw it out or recycle it. Burning it is pointless hooliganism.

    • This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Davis.
    #50122


    Participant

    My major issue with burning flags is I think most of them these days are either made or treated with synthetics that you probably shouldn’t be inhaling. I mean, no smoke is particularly good for you, but melted nylon? No thanks.

    #50123

    Davis
    Moderator

    I mean, burning nylon is problematic, unless you are really desperate for a cheap, toxic and short lived high. Though I would say paint thinner might work better?

    #50126

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg, Autumn, and Davis,

    All great points. Exposing the contents of “Holy Books” rather than burning them would be just the ticket for attacking ideas without attacking people and without making a mess and involving the Fire Marshall.

    And such exposure could also encourage Muslims with only nominal or familial ties to Islam to get in on questioning and disputing of the words in Al-Qu’ran, Al-Haddith, and Al-Sunnah. They might start asking embarassing and entertaining questions to their local Imam.

    Since Jews already have numerous religious and political factions (“two Jews, three viewpoints,”) including some of the greatest Secular minds, and since not even Orthodox Jews proselytize to non-Jews, the task is somewhat different and easier. Basically find Jewish allies of Rational, Secular thought and cheer them on and spread their word.

    #50128

    Simon Paynton
    Participant

    Kant’s Categorical Imperative.

    This is a good article explaining Kant’s Categorical Imperative for a beginner (like me).

    When we are trying to decide what the morally right thing to do is, what should we take into account?  Is it the consequences of the action that matter the most?  Or, is it the intentions of the person we should look at?  Both?  Neither?  One of the potential answers to these questions comes from an ethical theory put forth by 18th-century German philosopher Immanuel Kant.  This theory proposes that it is not consequences that should guide our actions; rather, we should be concerned about acting rationally and in accordance with duty to moral principles.

    I think we should take the goal of everyday morality into account – achieving or restoring mutual benefit.  All our everyday moral principles are examples of methods of how to reach this goal.  For example, helping, fairness, reciprocity, the Golden Rule, etc.

    In the case of the dinner party and the host who serves a cherished though horrible dish, we need to use the Golden Rule to ask, if I was them, what would I like?  Do they value honesty or flattery the most?  Or from a self-interested point of view, “would I have to put up with this thing time after time?”

    Everyone I know would rather be told the truth in a kind way.  Other times, I might let it fly if it’s not a serious thing.

    Kant’s Universalisation principle has some common sense appeal.  But I’m not sure I would trust it on an everyday level.  On an everyday level, those virtues that are forms of cooperation towards mutual benefit are much more reliable.  This includes honesty and not stealing.

     

    #50129

    jakelafort
    Participant

    In regard to islamaphobia it is pretty obvious ya gotta define the term. Are you referring to Muslims or Islam? Ideas or people?

    If it is ideas then indeed it is an obnoxious term. Aint nothing irrational about fear/hatred of Islam.

    Antisemitism is not a congruent term. The long history of hatred against all things Jewish is all encompassing. Agreed, both terms can be used as a defense against any form of criticism.

    I have spoken. It is but a token.

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