Sunday School

Sunday School 25th April 2021

This topic contains 126 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by  TheEncogitationer 3 days, 7 hours ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 127 total)
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  • #37510

    Davis
    Moderator

     but is the solution to be running around with suspicious statistics

    Again I think you are over-exagerating the extend of how suspicious these statistics are. Perhaps you are simply loathe to believe that sexual assault occurs as frequently as it does.

    My point is, when you say “society is changing,” you are talking about some people, some segments, but not others. “Society” isn’t nearly as homogeneous as you imply. Not only that, it never will be.

    I’m not going to quibble with you over your pedantic issues with my terminology. You know what I was referring to. It’s preposterous that you’d think that by society I meant “everyone” or a homogeneous whole. Obviously not Unseen. But there is a sufficient change in attitude that the law (and already some university policies) is slowly changing in such a way that: “but some people like spontaneity enough that asking for consent just seemed silly” will no longer be an excuse that will garner as much sympathy as it once did and the court system will reject as any legal excuse. I don’t think this is a bad thing. And no…it is not only men who need heed this warning.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Davis.
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 3 days ago by  Davis.
    #37514

    Unseen
    Participant

    but is the solution to be running around with suspicious statistics

    Again I think you are over-exagerating the extend of how suspicious these statistics are. Perhaps you are simply loathe to believe that sexual assault occurs as frequently as it does.

    My point is, when you say “society is changing,” you are talking about some people, some segments, but not others. “Society” isn’t nearly as homogeneous as you imply. Not only that, it never will be.

    When exaggeration isn’t enough, one over-exaggerates. LOL

    “Perhaps you are simply loathe to believe that sexual assault occurs as frequently as it does.” I’m just loathe to believe poorly conducted studies. Go back and review my example of the dog bite study, since you so obviously missed the point.

    Can you point to anything like a reliable, largely unassailable rape study that uses well-defined (non-fuzzy) and sufficiently narrow definitions?

    As this article points out, defining rape is challenging, complicated by the fact that here in the United States legal definitions vary by jurisdiction. Beyond that, a definition applied by a university might be broader than the one used in the local legal system. More than one coed, buoyed by a school finding that a “rape” occurred finds out that when she goes to the local police, the facts don’t meet their standard. At best, she might get a so-called “knock and talk” where a cop goes out to throw a scare into the accused.

    Obviously not Unseen but the law (and already some university policies) is slowly changing in such a way that: “but some people like spontaneity enough that asking for consent just seemed silly” will no longer be an excuse that will garner as much sympathy as it once did, and the court system will reject as any excuse.

    #37515

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I see her channel is ‘AEI’ and do they appear to be a conservative, Republican influencer group to me? That would raise a flag. I really can’t stand this US right left bullshit, it is everywhere.

    The way out of your conundrum is to do what I do (and I’m very liberal/progressive generally): Ignore her politics. Instead, if you have an attack that’s fact-based and soundly argued, let’s hear it. I don’t discount views based on their source, which is basically a poisoning of the well. I’m fair-minded and ask myself “Who is making sense here vs. who is appealing to emotion?” There are conservatives and there are conservatives. There are the MAGA head Trumpist “conservatives” and there are the more grounded conservatives. I can guarantee you that she is more of a level-headed Lincoln Project conservative than a Qanon “Stop the Steal” conservative.

    Nah, these organizations have agendas and the truth is not necessarily it. Face it, you can glint just about any conclusion you want from soft science data. The last paper wins. Further snooping around and I see she is also Jordan Peterson/MGTOW, anti-woke advocate. These kind of think tanks smell like the Koch brothers.

    #37516

    Autumn
    Participant

    [Factual Feminist video]
    It’s amazing how many terrible things evaporate once science and logic are applied.

    The difficulty with the “Factual Feminist” is I’ve not really seen her just represent facts. Unfortunately, I am not sure what studies, specifically, she is referring to. The Bureau of Justice Statistics survey appears to pull from NCVS data.

    I believe she is referring to this study:
    https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176

    Some background info on NCVS methodology:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK202265/

    I don’t know what study she is referring to with online surveys and non-representative samples. I found another study citing a similar 1 in 5 statistic on cdc.gov:
    https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

    The Factual Feminist states one figure is accurate and the other is not. The problem is, it’s difficult to make sense of her assessments of methodology. Both studies I’ve linked would have been available at the time she made her video. The methodology for both is available in the linked resources.

    At a glance:

    The BJS study is based on in-person interviews focusing on criminal activities both reported and not reported.

    The CDC study is based on phone interviews focusing on sexual violence.

    I’ve read through some of the materials, but to be honest, I’d have to spend far more time with it than I have available at the moment to make sense of it all. I don’t know that they are necessarily measuring the same things. Even if they should overlap considerably, that doesn’t mean they will produce similar results. The Bureau of Justice Statistics discusses this to some degree on their site, but it didn’t really provide anything in depth.

    #37519

    _Robert_
    Participant

    I have always had an attraction to beautiful women (who doesn’t in one form or another?) and have had several relationships over the years until finally achieving stability. Eventually every one of them has confided some sort of abuse story. At the time, I admit that my attitude was: “well that’s just the way it is” after a brief period of protective anger.

    These women received some sort of attention from males every day. Some percentage of those interactions become inappropriate. One told me about a day at the beach when a male popped out of the brush, junk in hand walking towards her. She was a runner, luckily. Another talks about advances from a professor over an entire semester and threats about not making the grade. Another talked about getting groped at a club while some in the crowd jeered. She stopped going to clubs.

    They all took it in stride, nothing was reported. I would bet that 20% of the women get 80% of the unwanted attention. Especially when they are 16 to 29 years of age. I also had a friend mentioned the she intentionally ‘let herself go’ to avoid this sort of attention.

    So I am wary of any study based on surveys just because so many women (especially in the unwoke past) consider unwanted, inappropriate and often abusive advances to be ‘normal’.

    #37522

    Robert – I was thinking about posting something like that and my experience would be very  similar. I am not exaggerating in saying that every woman I have been in a relationship with has had to deal with some form of sexual abuse in her past.  Two were survivors of rape. I think they have all told me similar stories about many of their girlfriends or siblings too. I remember once thinking to myself that it must be a small minority of women that can’t recall a physical assault of some form.

    In college I shared a house with 5 girls for a few months. One Sunday evening (after we had all hitchhiked back) one told of an attempted assault by the male driver. I told them that from now on they should soak some tissue papers in nail polish remover and keep it in a coat pocket with a cigarette lighter in the other. If they got any hassle, just set it alight and toss it unto the rear seats. Two of them used that to force the driver to stop and they then ran away. Once said she could see children’s schoolbooks in the car so he was a father and “seemed very nice”.

    #37524

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Davis,

    There are all sorts of documented cases of women drugging men and raping them. If the facts are known…why wouldn’t they be believed? Statutory rape is also a widely reported phenomena (especially famous cases of female teachers having sex with very young boys). How could you never have heard of any of this?

    I have heard of persons getting drugged by Rohypnol a.k.a. “Roofies” or “the date-rape drug.”  And in fact, drugging would the M.O. of choice for any predator of lesser strength.  However, in the U.S., the warnings to guard your drink at parties or clubs are typically directed at women, not men.

    And any men who found themselves in a drugging predicament would more likely garner less sympathy than a woman in the same situation because “He’s the man!” or “He’s a big boy!  He should have known better not to be that pussy-whipped!”

    The man is regarded as having more agency and decision-making power than women, even in situations where anyone can be a victim and even in situations where the advantages are reversed.

    And, yes, statutory rape is also a possibility.  But an adult female teacher having sex with a young, pre-adult male student in much of the male culture of the U.S. would get the young male a pat on the back and a: “Attaboy!  Get you some, Dude!”   Statute or no, such a scenario isn’t regarded so much as a crime but instead a rare and perky rite-of-passage for a select and lucky few males.

    The older adult female teacher seducing the younger male student boy is actually a common fantasy among many men in the U.S.  Too often, the male student seduced by a female teacher wouldn’t be regarded as a victim, but a jackpot winner!

    Van Halen did a whole song on the subject called: “Hot for Teacher:”

    By contrast, an older adult male teacher seducing a younger, non-adult female student, or even accused of such, would be very lucky not to get strung up and lynched from the high school football goalpost, not by Ku Kluxers, but by regular parents.

    So once again, you have got this all in reverse.

    To get a better idea on the situation of men in the United States and most likely throughout the West, I highly recommend Warren Ferrell’s book The Myth of Male Power.  It will show you just how everybody has got a shitty deal in relations between the sexes.

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  TheEncogitationer. Reason: Addendum of a word
    #37526

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Unseen,

    As this article points out, defining rape is challenging, complicated by the fact that here in the United States legal definitions vary by jurisdiction. Beyond that, a definition applied by a university might be broader than the one used in the local legal system. More than one coed, buoyed by a school finding that a “rape” occurred finds out that when she goes to the local police, the facts don’t meet their standard. At best, she might get a so-called “knock and talk” where a cop goes out to throw a scare into the accused.

    Perhaps this is a good reason why teaching students about rape and sexual assault and how to deal with the problem should be deferred to expert, competant law enforcers, attorneys, martial arts instructors, and shooting instructors, not to the Interdisciplinary Studies Department.

    #37527

    TheEncogitationer
    Participant

    Reg,

    What I am about to say, I don’t say to blame-the-victim, whether it’s your female friends or yourself.  I say this to stop anyone from becoming a victim in the first place and because I care about you, your female friends, and all people of good will:

    In the name of the Void and all that is good and right in the Natural Universe, PLEASE DO NOT HITCH-HIKE!

    Whenever you hitch-hike, you are getting into a 2000+ pound bullet that cannot be exited easily without serious injury or death, piloted by someone whose sobriety, vision, ability to drive, sanity, and moral character you do not know!

    And as self-defense experts repeatedly emphasize, once you are forcibly taken from your present location to another, the odds are very great that you may never be seen again!  Not only should you never hitch-hike, but fight like Hell any attempt by someone to force you into a vehicle!  Fight like your life depends on it because it does!

    Also, fire and chemicals are not the best weapons because they are the hardest to direct and control and their outcome could come back on you or the innocent via drowning, burning, axphixiation, etc.  And even if you used any weapon in a moving vehicle, how would you get control of the vehicle once the aggressor was taken out?   Again, the time to use a weapon against an aggressor is before you are forced into the vehicle!

    (Parenthetically, now you also see why we in the U.S. love having our own vehicles.  It saves a lot of trouble in more ways than one!)

    Please keep yourself and your loved ones safe and don’t hitch-hike!  There is only one life!  Defend and preserve it!

     

     

    #37528

    Unseen
    Participant

    I’ve read through some of the materials, but to be honest, I’d have to spend far more time with it than I have available at the moment to make sense of it all. I don’t know that they are necessarily measuring the same things.

    The “facts” are muddled, I agree.

    #37529

    Unseen
    Participant

    These women received some sort of attention from males every day. Some percentage of those interactions become inappropriate. One told me about a day at the beach when a male popped out of the brush, junk in hand walking towards her. She was a runner, luckily. Another talks about advances from a professor over an entire semester and threats about not making the grade. Another talked about getting groped at a club while some in the crowd jeered. She stopped going to clubs. They all took it in stride, nothing was reported. I would bet that 20% of the women get 80% of the unwanted attention. Especially when they are 16 to 29 years of age. I also had a friend mentioned the she intentionally ‘let herself go’ to avoid this sort of attention. So I am wary of any study based on surveys just because so many women (especially in the unwoke past) consider unwanted, inappropriate and often abusive advances to be ‘normal’.

    “Unwanted attention,” however gross and over-the-top, still isn’t rape, although it can be criminal (the male exhibitionist waving his weenie, for example, or the upskirter). Men viewing women as potential sex partners is normal within reasonable limits: Without it, hardly any girl would ever be invited out on a date, no families, no babies.

    #37530

    Unseen
    Participant

    Unseen,

    As this article points out, defining rape is challenging, complicated by the fact that here in the United States legal definitions vary by jurisdiction. Beyond that, a definition applied by a university might be broader than the one used in the local legal system. More than one coed, buoyed by a school finding that a “rape” occurred finds out that when she goes to the local police, the facts don’t meet their standard. At best, she might get a so-called “knock and talk” where a cop goes out to throw a scare into the accused.

    Perhaps this is a good reason why teaching students about rape and sexual assault and how to deal with the problem should be deferred to expert, competant law enforcers, attorneys, martial arts instructors, and shooting instructors, not to the Interdisciplinary Studies Department.

    I’m all for making our students, especially the females, a lot more aware of some of the unpleasant facts of life and giving them tools to keep them from finding themselves in dangerous situations and/or getting out of such situations.

    Once a female realizes she’s being or is about to be raped, the experts say she has a stark choice: go along with it or fight. In the first instance, she may not show much evidence it wasn’t consensual, in the second her chance of being murdered goes way up.

    #37531

    @ Encog – I fully appreciate your thinking about hitchhiking. However my story relates to the 1980’s when it was “normal”.  I have hitched hundreds of lifts with no trouble. I have never heard of any bad stories, only just self abusing sickos types.

    Once I was hitching for about an hour with no success as there were so many groups of girls doing the same. Then a VW “hippie van” pulled up to a couple of them and the side door slide open and they were asked something. They shook their heads and it drove up to the next group. I thought to myself that they were being propositioned. The van did this to about 4 groups or individuals, all who answered negatively. They got to me and stopped. “Hey man you got any cigarette papers?”. Yes, “Get in so”………a 3 day party. Excellent. Expect when I back to college Jesus had stolen my girlfriend.

    #37532

    Davis
    Moderator

    Enco…you have pretty sneakily shifted the focus from being believed to getting sympathy. Why did you do that?

    #37533

    It wasn’t just Van Halen who had it bad for teacher….

     

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