Sunday School
Sunday School February 25th 2024
This topic contains 189 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Simon Paynton 11 months ago.
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February 28, 2024 at 9:29 pm #52805
I don’t. I know most religious societies do to a greater or lesser extent and that is one of the reasons why religions persist.
I was generalising. I didn’t say which human males. I think actually sometimes all of society participates in it, especially when organised religion enters the picture.
The Barbara Smuts article says it can be countered by female social relationships, in the primate kingdom:
- male allies, who can stick up for the female against other males, and are given some “access” to the female
- female allies and solidarity
- powerful female hierarchies with kingmaking abilities whom the males have to please in order to be allowed to be powerful.
Does any of that sound familiar?
February 28, 2024 at 9:50 pm #52806@ Simon
Males as a group don’t gang up against females as if we are in a competition with them for some kind of resource or advantage. That’s patent nonsense.
I think it goes back to the days when if you wanted meat, you had to go out and fight for the bigger critters that could sustain the group for a while. You can snare a rabbit or shoot a grouse with an arrow, but they’d be gone in one meal. On the other hand, a pig or buffalo could provide food for days.
Perhaps men and women simply observed that nature hadn’t given women the strength men have to subdue a savage beast nearly as well. And after a strenuous day of subduing a prey animal and dragging it home (or wandering far afield to try to find one), womenfolk’s time was better spent on homely things like cooking, gardening, parenting children, etc., especially once pairbonding took over, replacing doing everything for the group, with both genders working primarily on behalf of one’s family.
Maybe, as time went by, it just got baked into the culture.
That social stratification originated with relative physical strength and that this is the ultimate basis of patriarchy even long past its usefulness isn’t a harebrained idea.
And don’t think all women are uncomfortable with it, either.
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This reply was modified 11 months, 3 weeks ago by
Unseen.
February 28, 2024 at 10:46 pm #52808Rape is very likely a biological reality. Chimps are rapists too and they share most of our dna
Indeed. Humans have the capacity to rape, murder, lie, commit genocide against millions, enslave, spread pointless hate. They also have the ability to modify this behaviour, by making actually very small sacrifices to increase overall safety, prosperity, equality, freedom and opportunity.
This only happens when people expected to make these changes don’t react with outrage and blame all the problems on the victims and scream bloody murder at having to actually make minute changes in their attitudes and behaviours.
February 29, 2024 at 6:11 am #52809Davis,
If this is what hockey players talk about in the locker room, and if sexual assault is a pattern with your own partners, you might want to consider taking up a new hobby and getting a new circle of friends, associates and potential partners, not to mention calling your local Ossifer Friendly.
I don’t know what the culture is like in the U.K. or Spain or wherever you find yourself, but in the U.S. and in my circles and in my media consumption, I never hear a joke made of rape against women. The female rape scenes I’ve seen in movies like A Clockwork Orange, The Outlaw Josey Wales, and I Spit on Your Grave were both horrific and angering!
Rape, however, is a punchline of humor when directed against males in a lot of U.S. media:
While I don’t buy the video producer’s proposal of Prison Abolition as a solution, and while he missed the rape scene with Ned Beattie in the movie Deliverance, the jist of the above video is correct. Men can be victims of rape and, as the sequel points out, not just by other men:
In fact, Criminologists contend that the two most under-reported crimes in the U.S. are child abuse and prison rape. Both males and females can be victims and perpetrators of child abuse and both males and females can be victims and perpetrators of prison rape, though the overwhelming majority of reported prison rapes are males.
You are right to be concerned and hurt about rape and sexual abuse, but everybody’s got their shit deal here and all of it needs solutions.
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This reply was modified 11 months, 2 weeks ago by
TheEncogitationer. Reason: Punctuation
February 29, 2024 at 12:49 pm #52811Males as a group don’t gang up against females as if we are in a competition with them for some kind of resource or advantage. That’s patent nonsense.
I’m not saying that males compete with females for resources. That would be nonsensical like you say. I’m saying that primate males compete with each other for females. Humans have social norms; social norms are ways of being cooperative in otherwise competitive situations. So control of women is delegated to society on behalf of men, via cooperative social norms.
February 29, 2024 at 4:39 pm #52813@ Simon
So, you’re saying that males treat women like a resource and compete for that resource and that is how patriarchy comes about(?).
February 29, 2024 at 4:51 pm #52814Robert,
No one here thinks rape or violence against ANYONE is OK. Around here the women complain men don’t approach them. So many guys just don’t want some “only fans” content creator. It’s not rape culture, its divorce culture and well since the man will get it in the ass, I guess you could still call it rape culture. It’s so great that now we have so many more unmarried, uncommitted, lonely people.
I see someone else besides me has been watching MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) and MGTOW-friendly videos. 😁
There is much truth about what they say about the modern state of relations between the sexes, with some provisos and add-ons.
A couple things I don’t understand about MGTOW, though, are those who make these complaints about relationships into a one-note symphony. Why not just Go Your Own Way and be done with it? Why be like the Buddhist Monk who’s still carrying the maid across the stream even after you’re long into dry land? ☸️ 🕉️ 🧙♀️
Also, I don’t understand the MGTOW who get into Traditionalism and religion. Wait, isn’t it religion–and in particular Abrahamic religion–that promotes and bolsters the very courting and marriage which MGTOW despise? Hmmm…🤔
February 29, 2024 at 5:26 pm #52816So, you’re saying that males treat women like a resource and compete for that resource and that is how patriarchy comes about(?).
Pretty much. Humans turn competition into cooperation via social norms. The way they obtain that resource is through domination and control of women’s sexuality.
February 29, 2024 at 6:34 pm #52817@ Simon
But the domination of women’s sexuality in the U.S. is not done by men per se but by one political party, pretty much with the assent of its female members.
I don’t see liberal democratic/Democrat males playing much of a role, so I don’t see it as a gender thing.
February 29, 2024 at 8:38 pm #52818I don’t see liberal democratic/Democrat males playing much of a role, so I don’t see it as a gender thing.
Wife-beating used to be the norm in left-wing circles, long before they got into feminism. However, you raise an interesting, unresolved question: what’s the link between societal and domestic patriarchy? Presumably men follow society’s norms to some extent, so just parrot what they’ve been told or what they find attractive. Other patriarchy is a symptom of personal narcissism. The two are very similar.
February 29, 2024 at 8:46 pm #52819Wife-beating used to be the norm in left-wing circles, long before they got into feminism.
If I express a huge degree of skepticism, what proof or even evidence tending to support that assertion do you have?
February 29, 2024 at 9:46 pm #52820Anecdotal. I heard about it happening to actual people, and also the feminists were complaining about it.
February 29, 2024 at 10:49 pm #52821Anecdotal. I heard about it happening to actual people, and also the feminists were complaining about it.
Come on Simon. Even you has to know that such evidence only prove you have questionable taste in whom you choose as friends and associates and the wife-beating circles they move in. Either that or The Gods of Randomness got you real good.
March 1, 2024 at 1:18 am #52822I’ve just said I’ve been in rapey situations, and instead of anyone going “I’m sorry to hear that, that’s bad, those guys shouldn’t have done that” I get “maybe you should pick these guys more carefully”. This is classic rape culture enabling. The nicest seeming guy in the world can turn out to be rapey.
I’m glad to hear you haven’t come across rape culture. That’s good. Your experiences don’t represent everyone else’s. Also keep in mind, you are unlikely to have been the object of predators and so have not seen nor experienced this. I have never been on a straight male sports team, in multiple countries (including North America) where rapey talk and jokes weren’t common. I have studied in multiple universities in several countries and I have witnessed rape culture first hand, have had female friends recount cases of rape, sexual assault, date rape, endless sexual harassment and the few times they did anything about it faced intimidation, people not believing them and police indifference.
This is to be expected, the worst of the bad behaviour doesn’t happen out in the open. It is not unusual you haven’t seen it. Not seeing it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Millions of women (and male rape victims) aren’t making this shit up. They don’t put them selves out there to people denying their stories, ridiculing them and often paying social prices because they had some superficial experience. It is more prevalent than people want to believe, more problematic than most people want to deal with.
Instead of denying the scope of the problem, expecting victims to change their behaviour and playing down the issues, how about supporting victims, calling out the problem and challenging people (if you ever come across it)?
Rape culture is bad. Enabling it by denying it’s prevalence, expecting victims to “deal with it” or “adapt to it” and showing indifference to it is almost as bad.
March 1, 2024 at 6:42 am #52824I’ve learned the best way is to give out the “Don’t fuck with me vibe.” I keep everyone at a distance now I don’t trust anyone. I’ve also learned that there is no such thing as any sort of “real criminal justice.” The only thing you can count on is you to protect you. You have to be a warrior in this world. Safety is an illusion and a lie. There’s no such thing. And guys like that dumbass pastor never see any sort of real justice. Karma is a bitch tho 😉
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